afk gump

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Wil
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afk gump

Post by Wil »

Hello,

I just got an AFK gump while weaving yarn into cloth. :shock: I find this confusing. :? The codex has the following to say about AFK activities:

b. Macroing allowed, even while you are away from keyboard, except for activities listed in rule 4.c. below.
c. When performing the following activities, you must not be away from keyboard: killing creatures, fishing, gathering ore/wood/leather/wool/plants, taming animals. ...

Weaving is not listed. I don't expect, and I suspect most players don't expect the list of prohibited activities to be exhaustively detailed but I'd prefer to have at least a clue that I might be breaking a rule before breaking one. :verymad: Like if AFK macro-crafting was against the rules then I'd expect spinning, weaving and tailoring to be covered by that. But macro-crafting is not listed. Nor is any other activity whose plain English understanding would reasonably including weaving yarn into cloth.

Anyway, would the admins mind clarifying this, either by adding the AFK activities which are prohibited to the codex or correcting the software so that weaving does not trigger the AFK gump?

Thank you, :)
Wil
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Re: afk gump

Post by Yoda »

I am not an admin but I can indeed shed a little light on this particular lovely.

at one time in history people would farm flax on their own property in bulk, spin afk in bulk, turn to cloth in bulk, and craft to npc sellable items in bulk in fact some combination of this may indeed still work...
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Re: afk gump

Post by +Requiem »

I am not an admin but I can indeed shed a little light on this particular lovely.

at one time in history people would farm flax on their own property in bulk, spin afk in bulk, turn to cloth in bulk, and craft to npc sellable items in bulk in fact some combination of this may indeed still work...
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afk gump
Post by Wil on Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:43 pm

Hello,

I just got an AFK gump while weaving yarn into cloth. :shock: I find this confusing. :? The codex has the following to say about AFK activities:

b. Macroing allowed, even while you are away from keyboard, except for activities listed in rule 4.c. below.
c. When performing the following activities, you must not be away from keyboard: killing creatures, fishing, gathering ore/wood/leather/wool/plants, taming animals. ...

Weaving is not listed. I don't expect, and I suspect most players don't expect the list of prohibited activities to be exhaustively detailed but I'd prefer to have at least a clue that I might be breaking a rule before breaking one. :verymad: Like if AFK macro-crafting was against the rules then I'd expect spinning, weaving and tailoring to be covered by that. But macro-crafting is not listed. Nor is any other activity whose plain English understanding would reasonably including weaving yarn into cloth.

Anyway, would the admins mind clarifying this, either by adding the AFK activities which are prohibited to the codex or correcting the software so that weaving does not trigger the AFK gump?

Thank you, :)
Wil
I've been pushing, and will continue to push to have certain other afk activities added explicitly to the codex. Some aren't as big a deal as others, but at one time the codex read along the lines of: "or any other activity where a player could have financial gain". I still don't know why this bit was removed, and would like to see it back in place. If you can have in game gain, other than pure skill gain (swords skill for example, doesn't directly get you anything other than swords skill), you shouldn't be doing it afk.

In your example, players used to be able to sell bandages to healers for 2 gold each with the flax/cotton harvested as Yoda mentioned. You could earn up to roughly a million gold a day, completely afk. Since you can still sell cloth on exex, this still falls under that hood, and is still illegal while afk, even though not explicitly stated. It is also part of the reason why caps were added to the amount that vendors will purchase in a given time frame, and other items were removed from things vendors would purchase at all.
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Re: afk gump

Post by Wil »

+Requiem wrote:In your example, players used to be able to sell bandages to healers for 2 gold each with the flax/cotton harvested as Yoda mentioned. You could earn up to roughly a million gold a day, completely afk. Since you can still sell cloth on exex, this still falls under that hood, and is still illegal while afk, even though not explicitly stated. It is also part of the reason why caps were added to the amount that vendors will purchase in a given time frame, and other items were removed from things vendors would purchase at all.
Hello,

Harvesting flax, cotton or wool would easily be understood to fall under "gathering resources." Which, by the way, should be stated that way in the codex: "gathering resources such as ore/wood/leather/wool/plants" not the less clear "gathering ore/wood/leather/wool/plants" which incorrectly implies it offers an exhaustive list.

I was not harvesting materials. I was spinning yarn made from flax and wool I long since gathered (while present) in to cloth. This is not gathering resources by any reasonable definition and weaving offers no more direct financial gain than any other crafting macro that converts gathered materials in to different forms for further crafting.

Do you have the same rule for crafting wood in to barrel staves for later making potion kegs and selling them on exex? Should I not expect that the codex's silence on the question combined with its exhortation that afk macros are permitted except for what's listed means that such activity is permitted?

Crafting AFK is not listed. Selling to NPC vendors or adding to Exex AFK is not listed. And as you point out, a general activity not just directly but somehow nebulously associated with financial gain, which is everything and nothing since every activity forms part of a chain that eventually results in financial gain, is not listed. Nothing in the codex so much as implies that weaving yarn to cloth is prohibited AFK.

I also think "or any other activity where a player could have financial gain" is a terribly written rule which leaves folks unenlightened as to what's an actual violation. If you mean any activity which results in the player immediately receiving gold as a result of a macro then say that. If you intend something broader than that, I can think of no concise way to say so short of banning AFK macros outright. Instead, gather the activities which offend you in to categories and list those categories. Don't like crafting AFK? Say so in the codex! That'll cover weaving right enough.

I don't really care if you make weaving AFK a rules violation. I think it's silly: you've already covered your stated issue in the harvesting phase. But that's not my call and I'll live with whatever rules you choose to have.

I do, however, think that enforcing a rule which was never effectively communicated is a really horrible thing to do. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that's only because the law is very effectively communicated. There are no secret, unwritten laws. Having been burned by such hidden rules here in the past, I'd appreciate it if you'd add this and any other blatantly missing rules to the codex. If people have to guess what the rules are, you're doing it wrong.

Regards,
Wil
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Re: afk gump

Post by mattwaldram »

Funnily enough, this rule is stated in the FAQs...

http://www.uoex.net/wiki/FAQ

The pertinent section states:

"Am I allowed to AFK level weapons or gather resources?

Being AFK to gather resources (such as wood, beeswax, honey, ore, fish), level a weapon, or killing any kind of spawn is not allowed.
Note that the rules also include anything that is used to gain wealth.
This would include, but is not limited to:
Gathering wool/flax/cotton for use in making bandages to sell.
Gathering/buying arrows/bolts/reagents from NPCs to sell for a slightly higher price.
Crafting/making items to sell on the open market, such as repair scrolls, kegs, weapons, ingots and so forth."
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Re: afk gump

Post by +Requiem »

Wil wrote:
+Requiem wrote:In your example, players used to be able to sell bandages to healers for 2 gold each with the flax/cotton harvested as Yoda mentioned. You could earn up to roughly a million gold a day, completely afk. Since you can still sell cloth on exex, this still falls under that hood, and is still illegal while afk, even though not explicitly stated. It is also part of the reason why caps were added to the amount that vendors will purchase in a given time frame, and other items were removed from things vendors would purchase at all.
Hello,

Harvesting flax, cotton or wool would easily be understood to fall under "gathering resources." Which, by the way, should be stated that way in the codex: "gathering resources such as ore/wood/leather/wool/plants" not the less clear "gathering ore/wood/leather/wool/plants" which incorrectly implies it offers an exhaustive list.

I was not harvesting materials. I was spinning yarn made from flax and wool I long since gathered (while present) in to cloth. This is not gathering resources by any reasonable definition and weaving offers no more direct financial gain than any other crafting macro that converts gathered materials in to different forms for further crafting.

Do you have the same rule for crafting wood in to barrel staves for later making potion kegs and selling them on exex? Should I not expect that the codex's silence on the question combined with its exhortation that afk macros are permitted except for what's listed means that such activity is permitted?

Crafting AFK is not listed. Selling to NPC vendors or adding to Exex AFK is not listed. And as you point out, a general activity not just directly but somehow nebulously associated with financial gain, which is everything and nothing since every activity forms part of a chain that eventually results in financial gain, is not listed. Nothing in the codex so much as implies that weaving yarn to cloth is prohibited AFK.

I also think "or any other activity where a player could have financial gain" is a terribly written rule which leaves folks unenlightened as to what's an actual violation. If you mean any activity which results in the player immediately receiving gold as a result of a macro then say that. If you intend something broader than that, I can think of no concise way to say so short of banning AFK macros outright. Instead, gather the activities which offend you in to categories and list those categories. Don't like crafting AFK? Say so in the codex! That'll cover weaving right enough.

I don't really care if you make weaving AFK a rules violation. I think it's silly: you've already covered your stated issue in the harvesting phase. But that's not my call and I'll live with whatever rules you choose to have.

I do, however, think that enforcing a rule which was never effectively communicated is a really horrible thing to do. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but that's only because the law is very effectively communicated. There are no secret, unwritten laws. Having been burned by such hidden rules here in the past, I'd appreciate it if you'd add this and any other blatantly missing rules to the codex. If people have to guess what the rules are, you're doing it wrong.

Regards,
Wil
I agree. I think certain activities like the ones you mentioned deserve to be added to the codex explicitly.

Perhaps this post will bring some much needed (in my own opinion) attention to this issue.

I would consider not only flax/cotton/thread as a resource, but cloth as well, as it is used to make bandages, and/or you can sell it to someone else.

If you can conceivably do it afk to make a profit, you shouldn't be doing it. It you have a question, please feel free to ask.
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Re: afk gump

Post by Wil »

Thanks +R.

I would also point out that between the codex and your posts here you've listed as prohibited more or less all AFK macroing except for:
  • * training skills other than crafting and gathering skills, and combat skills when not against trainers
    * advertising in chat no more than once per hour,
    * opening moongates and
    * prancing about.
If that's intentional, the codex should probably say, "Away from keyboard (AFK) macroing is prohibited except..." instead of leading with "Macroing allowed, even while you are away from keyboard." You could tail it with "other activities if pre-approved by a GM" and land at a place where players need not fear unwritten rules.

Saying that AFK macroing is generally allowed is rather misleading if it's mostly not. It reads to me like you could list what is allowed far more concisely than what isn't.

Regards,
Wil
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Re: afk gump

Post by timthree »

I have also seen the AFK check come up while making cloth and have wondered at the logic of it. I have never been checked while filling potion kegs, although I usually fill 16 potion kegs every 2 weeks for beekeeping. I used a macro for cooking fish steaks one at a time for cooking skill. Same thing for making daggers for blacksmith skill. Now I am not sure if those should be allowed or not.
I certainly understand not allowing gathering resources while AFK, and don't wish to break shard rules. However, re-reading the codex,there seemed to be a distinction between gathering resources and actually using them. If that is not the case, I would like a list of allowed or not allowed AFK activities. Thanks in advance.
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Re: afk gump

Post by +Requiem »

Wil wrote:Thanks +R.

I would also point out that between the codex and your posts here you've listed as prohibited more or less all AFK macroing except for:
* training skills other than crafting and gathering skills, and combat skills when not against trainers
* advertising in chat no more than once per hour,
* opening moongates and
* prancing about.

If that's intentional, the codex should probably say, "Away from keyboard (AFK) macroing is prohibited except..." instead of leading with "Macroing allowed, even while you are away from keyboard." You could tail it with "other activities if pre-approved by a GM" and land at a place where players need not fear unwritten rules.

Saying that AFK macroing is generally allowed is rather misleading if it's mostly not. It reads to me like you could list what is allowed far more concisely than what isn't.

Regards,
Wil
The problem is... some things that should probably be against the rules currently aren't. (Which is why it IS confusing, even to me as staff). Making kegs afk isn't, but it should be for instance. I would *like* it to be, but I can't enforce it until a codex change is made. Other thing's (like the afk spinning cloth), are, but aren't explicitly listed. We don't currently manually check for afk cloth spinning, but there is a gump that was intentionally put there for that reason.
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Re: afk gump

Post by Silent »

since this shard offers a trading platform like Exex it is completely reasonable that gathering resources must be controled otherwise unfair trading would drop market prices and soon this server would be a world for bots, that rules out the gaming expierience all by itself...

basically what the codex says is either your playing, or not... (or it should say i gess...)
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Re: afk gump

Post by apocalypse »

I agree that if these sorts of things are not controlled, the market would be destroyed. It of course seems ridiculous to have to be so controlling over little things, but even one little exploit can lead to disaster.

There is a lot of players who take this game seriously, and are viciously competitive. I'm one of those people from time to time, but I try and control myself and just enjoy playing the game. You don't always have to be gaining something, in order for this game to be fun. It is easy to get caught up in making money though, as it takes ALOT of gold or EDs to buy all the nice things available on this shard. If all those things were worthless though, and took no effort to get, I don't think we would have very many players here.

I agree that maybe the Codex should spell out things really clearly, so that there is no question what is right or wrong, and it also makes it easy to police exploiters if its more black and white. The "if it makes you money afk, don't do it" rule definitely should be there though, as well as a good list of specific things.
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Re: afk gump

Post by Wil »

apocalypse wrote:The "if it makes you money afk, don't do it" rule definitely should be there.
Hi Apocalypse,

Leaving aside whether that concept should be a rule, a well written rule has crisp boundaries that are easily identified by all readers, even readers for whom English is a second language or whose grasp of English is poor.

"If it makes you money afk, don't do it" would be a poorly written rule. It's too vague. What makes money? Selling to vendors? Crafting items that can be sold to vendors? Enhancing abilities which permit you to succeed at quests which earn gold? Posting messages to world chat advertising your money-making vendors? Where is the outer boundary of the group of activities which "make you money?" Far too vague.

Write concise rules, not vague ones. Rules that don't demand further explanation. If you don't want folks selling to vendors or on exex, say "no use of a macro to directly sell anything while AFK." Don't say "no selling AFK" because your vendors and exex can sell for you while you're AFK or even offline. Crisp borders, not fuzzy ones. If you don't want folks making stuff AFK they can later sell, say "no crafting AFK." And if a few activities remain which you want to disallow but they don't fit in to obvious categories, state them explicitly.

Don't make players guess what the rules really mean!

-Wil
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Re: afk gump

Post by +Requiem »

Hi Apocalypse,

Leaving aside whether that concept should be a rule, a well written rule has crisp boundaries that are easily identified by all readers, even readers for whom English is a second language or whose grasp of English is poor.

"If it makes you money afk, don't do it" would be a poorly written rule. It's too vague. What makes money? Selling to vendors? Crafting items that can be sold to vendors? Enhancing abilities which permit you to succeed at quests which earn gold? Posting messages to world chat advertising your money-making vendors? Where is the outer boundary of the group of activities which "make you money?" Far too vague.

Write concise rules, not vague ones. Rules that don't demand further explanation. If you don't want folks selling to vendors or on exex, say "no use of a macro to directly sell anything while AFK." Don't say "no selling AFK" because your vendors and exex can sell for you while you're AFK or even offline. Crisp borders, not fuzzy ones. If you don't want folks making stuff AFK they can later sell, say "no crafting AFK." And if a few activities remain which you want to disallow but they don't fit in to obvious categories, state them explicitly.

Don't make players guess what the rules really mean!

-Wil
One of the problems with society today is with people who demand everything spelled out, so they they can then try to circumvent said rule by a technicality. We want some vagueness there so we have wiggle room where we feel it is necessary. For the vast majority of players a rule like 'if you can make money doing it afk, don't' is plenty sufficient. It's generally understood that using an in game feature such as a vendor isn't covered by this rule, unless someone is being extraordinarily nitpicky. If players have questions, they can always send a page and ask.

We can't cover every possible situation so vagueness is a viable solution. If you don't think you should be doing something, you probably shouldn't. If you think about the meaning behind the rule, and think well maybe this is what they mean, by all means send a page and ask if it's ok before assuming it is.

In your example, selling to vendors, crafting items, and chat advertising would probably all fall under that rule. Skilling however would not, as we provide a training room up to 75 skill, and personal trainers up to 120 for *most* things. It would be vague on skilling alchemy or something, but you could always ask our stance on it. Personally, keg making/filling should be against the rules. I've brought it up many times, and hopefully with this post, it will finally see resolution.

Consise rules are easier to get around or otherwise exploit. If the rule was "You can't stand inside your house to kill monsters while afk", someone would have a script to move them around on the porch, or move around the house, or try to cast energy vortexes from the roof, or... whatever... "No killing monsters while afk", while a lot more vague covers ALL of these scenario's and more.

If we tried to cover every possible scenario, the codex would be 700+ pages long, and just overwhelming, and not very useful at all.

Again, if you have a specific question on something you want to do, and aren't sure if it is breaking a rule, SEND A HELP REQUEST AND ASK BEFORE DOING IT.
Worst case scenario, I have to ask +Nyx or +Veritas, who may have to in turn ask +Colibri. So a bit of a waiting game, which doesn't really harm anything.
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Re: afk gump

Post by Silent »

Wil wrote:
Weaving is not listed. I don't expect, and I suspect most players don't expect the list of prohibited activities to be exhaustively detailed but I'd prefer to have at least a clue that I might be breaking a rule before breaking one. :verymad: Like if AFK macro-crafting was against the rules then I'd expect spinning, weaving and tailoring to be covered by that. But macro-crafting is not listed. Nor is any other activity whose plain English understanding would reasonably including weaving yarn into cloth.
actually it is listed you see, under penalties:

Type A: AFK - Away From Keyboard - gathering resources, killing creatures

While performing actions listed under Codex rule 4.c. you need to be at the keyboard at all times.

Automated check: mining; lumberjacking; fishing; picking flax & cotton; using a spinning wheel or a loom
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Re: afk gump

Post by Wil »

Silent wrote:Automated check: mining; lumberjacking; fishing; picking flax & cotton; using a spinning wheel or a loom
I had to google that exact phrase to find it. It's buried under "penalties." Not exactly (or at all) where someone would think to look when trying to make sure something they want to do is within the rules. Hidden rules like this are bad news.
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