End game content

[Rahr]

Remember when a Invulnerable, Vanquishing, Supremely Accurate, Silver Katanna was the UBER weapon of all weapons? 150 or durability, 35% DMI, 20SS Undead Slayer in other words, pretty much a crap weapon now.

Heh I remember my first Vanquishing weapon, I was so out of my mind excited! Couldn’t wait to try it out.....got PK’d and robbed of it right outside of Brit

[Charon]

Remember when a Invulnerable, Vanquishing, Supremely Accurate, Silver Katanna was the UBER weapon of all weapons? 150 or durability, 35% DMI, 20SS Undead Slayer in other words, pretty much a crap weapon now.

Heh I remember my first Vanquishing weapon, I was so out of my mind excited! Couldn’t wait to try it out.....got PK’d and robbed of it right outside of Brit

Haha
Oh yes the good ole days!


Picking cotton in Moonglow then haulin butt back to safety to sell the cotton.
Rince n repeat.

Tough sloggin being a noob in pk and looting days

[+Requiem]

Please keep the thread on topic.

What sort of content would you like to see? What IS end-game content, to you?

I'd like to re-iterate that Ultima Online was designed as a sandbox. Anybody could do anything they wanted. I think end-game is different for everyone. For some it might be being able to solo a balron. For someone else, it might be making and selling 4x50 weapons. For someone else, it might be being able to tame white wyrms.

In other words, I think in Ultima end-game is more a state of mind, rather than a set of content. If you look at WOW for example, end-game there was raiding. Levelling up, and then grouping, wasn't the fun part. Then, in each expansion, your character grew in power by going into harder dungeons, getting better gear, and higher levels.

In UO, we don't really have that, and never have. You make a character built the way you wanted with 700 points, and do the things you enjoy. There always was a defined maximum you could achieve. You could change your skills up, or switch weapons, but your 700 points limited your ability to do things. That's what alts were for. You didn't really get any more powerful, you just had more things to do.

Just remember, this is a SANDBOX game, not a progressively harder/better gear game.

[Johnny Warren]

As I've been reading this thread I've moved my stance from "make it harder" to it's friggin' sweet as, however I have an idea (+R asked for ideas moving forward) to keep difficulty alive as we move forward.

I love the concepts +N was talking about with +V's new content (mirror entities, dispelling stuff etc).

My idea is a more judicious use of mortal strike on new mobs. Mortal strike is a nice way to kill high HP players without it being a 1-shot kill. It gets around insta heal and it still implies an advantage on those with large reserves of HP, but it makes you defeatable.

If you're whirlwinding through labyrinth and one of those minos mortals you when you have 3-4 on you then you need to take a step back and not take hits for a while before your "invulnerability" is turned back on. If you designed a mob or group of mobs that worked together where 1 type had a 100% chance to mortal you it would be hard. You could make those mobs weaker and easier to pick off so when you fight such a group if you rush in and whirlwind into their tanks (hard hitting high hp/resist mobs) and ignore the smaller things that mortal you then you die. But if you fight cleverly you would need to pick off the mortal strike mobs first to defeat the rest.

Whilst not being a solution to all the world's woes I think that you could make better use of this ability as it is a simple way to remove one of the 2 things that makes player chars godlike; the insta heal.

[Cornbread]

For "end game" content I like the idea of quests. Don't have to be anything well thought out or with some great story. Just have a guy who says he'll give you an awesome item, maybe BC quality or even a Titan's quality. Could also be deco. Some dude gives you a book that says kill/collect items. It's a ton of items make them account bound even to get this awesome item. Similar to Sgail, but I don't like the thought of just collecting lumber since that makes a weird market and inflates prices on items needed for other things. Could even make it you collect "x" amount of the BC quality items to exchange for a Titan's quality. Or something where you get some sort of "currency" that can then be traded for a cool item or ultra rare deco. I'd personally make the currency stackable and account bound to prevent people from just buying what they want and actually having to earn something. I don't think the final items should be account bound because if I worked my tail off for an item and I want to sell it I think I should.

There are no dungeons or mobs hard to kill and I don't think it's worth trying to make something. Even +V's dungeons or Sgail or events have really been that hard. Just require different tactics. Removing things we work hard for like auto heal or making relayers useless for certain zones or quests is garbage and will deter anyone from wanting to do it. We worked for our stuff and want to receive the benefit for it.

Giving us a reason to explore the world or revisit places we don't tend to go to often to me is much more desirable.

[Charon]

For "end game" content I like the idea of quests. Don't have to be anything well thought out or with some great story. Just have a guy who says he'll give you an awesome item, maybe BC quality or even a Titan's quality. Could even make it you collect "x" amount of the BC quality items to exchange for a Titan's quality......

Or something where you get some sort of "currency" that can then be traded for a cool item or ultra rare deco. I'd personally make the currency stackable and account bound to prevent people from just buying what they want and actually having to earn something. I don't think the final items should be account bound because if I worked my tail off for an item and I want to sell it I think I should.
..... We worked for our stuff and want to receive the benefit for it.

Giving us a reason to explore the world or revisit places we don't tend to go to often to me is much more desirable.

So for "end game" you want to make the uber powerful become even more uber powerful?
Create quests only they can do so they can either sell the uber rare items (for gazillions of gold/EDs) or use the uber powerful rares themselves?

I'm not suggesting they take away anything from anyone but catering to the rich n uber is plain wrong.

I suggest making an alt, start at ground zero and using only the alts abilties and resources to build it up.
Game is now fresh and new again.
If a new quest comes out and the alt can't do it, you still have an Uber to do it.

Just my opinion.

[Yoda]

As I've been reading this thread I've moved my stance from "make it harder" to it's friggin' sweet as, however I have an idea (+R asked for ideas moving forward) to keep difficulty alive as we move forward.

I love the concepts +N was talking about with +V's new content (mirror entities, dispelling stuff etc).

My idea is a more judicious use of mortal strike on new mobs. Mortal strike is a nice way to kill high HP players without it being a 1-shot kill. It gets around insta heal and it still implies an advantage on those with large reserves of HP, but it makes you defeatable.

If you're whirlwinding through labyrinth and one of those minos mortals you when you have 3-4 on you then you need to take a step back and not take hits for a while before your "invulnerability" is turned back on. If you designed a mob or group of mobs that worked together where 1 type had a 100% chance to mortal you it would be hard. You could make those mobs weaker and easier to pick off so when you fight such a group if you rush in and whirlwind into their tanks (hard hitting high hp/resist mobs) and ignore the smaller things that mortal you then you die. But if you fight cleverly you would need to pick off the mortal strike mobs first to defeat the rest.

Whilst not being a solution to all the world's woes I think that you could make better use of this ability as it is a simple way to remove one of the 2 things that makes player chars godlike; the insta heal.

this times 100, I mean I can recall a super practical example of this
corn tested out the original reindeer quest and due to awesomeness.. breezed it had tactics..
that first year when it opened (myself included) the corpse parade was just nuts, on the hardest of us all.. it is indeed something to think about even look at numbers and formulas.. that first day was a DOOZY

[Xavian]

Mortal strike will put a damper on your mood in a hurry

[Cornbread]

I have the feeling most of you have never played while have well over 600HP. When you're at that level mortal strike is as useless as poison. Even now that I only have 500HP and fall way short of where I used to be I can still stand in the middle of basically any stack and WW and still be unkillable. Certain mobs that can kill you require you to slowly walk away WW until the big mob is the only one standing then switch to bow and kill him, too. As I stated previously it's all in tactics and practice.

The reason for my previous post concerning the super items and/or deco is that at the end game level do you honestly think wearing another Titan's will make a difference? It's 12HP and 7 Str over any other piece you might relayer. The difference is miniscule. I would like to see the items being so high priced that you'd have to be stupid to buy it from an end game player. A Titan's isn't worth the 2k+ ED and a BC certainly isn't worth it's 200+ED (whatever it's selling for now). A BC gives you 3HP and 2STR. It means nothing. The only reason we wear those is because we have already figured out how to play the game and defeat anything so it's more of a status or bragging piece than anything else.

At true "end game" status you're sitting with 600HP and have switched to buying an insane amount of houses and overpriced deco. Want an example go look at my house, I have 25 or so. Alejandro, something like 50. That's just two examples. What does it honestly matter if you're at that level if I start stacking up my Titan's on my front porch to brag or putting up gigantic deco pieces? If anything I think it gives others something to strive for.

[Charon]

I have the feeling most of you have never played while have well over 600HP. When you're at that level mortal strike is as useless as poison. Even now that I only have 500HP and fall way short of where I used to be I can still stand in the middle of basically any stack and WW and still be unkillable. Certain mobs that can kill you require you to slowly walk away WW until the big mob is the only one standing then switch to bow and kill him, too. As I stated previously it's all in tactics and practice.

The reason for my previous post concerning the super items and/or deco is that at the end game level do you honestly think wearing another Titan's will make a difference? It's 12HP and 7 Str over any other piece you might relayer. The difference is miniscule. I would like to see the items being so high priced that you'd have to be stupid to buy it from an end game player. A Titan's isn't worth the 2k+ ED and a BC certainly isn't worth it's 200+ED (whatever it's selling for now). A BC gives you 3HP and 2STR. It means nothing. The only reason we wear those is because we have already figured out how to play the game and defeat anything so it's more of a status or bragging piece than anything else.

At true "end game" status you're sitting with 600HP and have switched to buying an insane amount of houses and overpriced deco. Want an example go look at my house, I have 25 or so. Alejandro, something like 50. That's just two examples. What does it honestly matter if you're at that level if I start stacking up my Titan's on my front porch to brag or putting up gigantic deco pieces? If anything I think it gives others something to strive for.

Well that ^^^^^^ is some epic back patting right there.

"The only reason we wear those is because we have already figured out how to play the game and defeat anything so it's more of a status or bragging piece than anything else. "

You have figured out how to play the game?
Click mouse play macro?
Auto loot script?
Open wallet, buy EDs?
Exactly what part required any real figuring out?
The game is very simple my friend, hit harder and heal faster then what you are fighting, loot, rinse n repeat.
Or gain skills crafted better items, gain more skills craft even better items.

If the items you mention are so trivial why mention them at all?
Serious question, really.

You missed the real point to my comments above.
Creating a quest, super monster, or what have you just so you have a challenge is NOT the point of UO.
UO is meant to be a community working together. You are meant to require the help of your friends, guild mates,
people you don't even know to further yourself and others. This is why one could only get to a certain point in power
and no further, soloing the realm was never intended.

Standing from the balcony of your house or all 25 of them and proclaiming how awesome you are is not the way to get the communities buy in, neither is getting in a ____ match with you from one of my 3 houses.

I'll take the high road at this point.

Keep the ideas coming everyone, together we can find a balance.
Cheers,

[Cornbread]

I can definitely understand why you would think my comments reflect some sort of Napolean complex. Most of what you said is correct, I and others have figured out a great combination of macros and where things are and how to get them. The glorious thing about this game and why we all still play it after 20 years is that it can be whatever you want it to be for anyone playing. I personally don't play with a guild and never have. Some people spend money to get what they want in here and get "end game" within a short period. I did not but I know many others that have. The ones that do generally quit in short time.

If the items you mention are so trivial why mention them at all?
Serious question, really.

As for this I mentioned it because I'm responding to the topic. You are correct, for the most part, kill things faster than they kill you. Once you get to the point where you do that the only thing you can do is the same thing over and over. So rather than setting that macro and watching while I kill or craft the same things over and over force me to go to the dungeons I have deemed useless. Do things I don't have a macro for and it would not be feasible to write a macro for.

The way I see it is most of the content that has been designed for the well geared player does not give a reward that is worth going for. The most difficult area, Sgail, gives some pants. The pants are nice if you don't already have a relayer in that spot. To get those pants you most likely already have a relayer so they will go in a box and sit there. If a quest gives an item we actually will use, an uber weapon, chances are we will either donate to get the ED to relayer them or buy ED from someone else who did, to relayer them. Either way that's what keeps the shard going strong.

I've been following this topic and waited to respond until I did because I've actually pondered this same topic for years. What can be done that will help retain the long term player. Just two days ago I was speaking with a returning player from nearly 8 years ago and we actually talked about how so many of the veteran players we used to know are no longer here. We also used to peak at 300 players, just last night someone was excited in global that we hit 200. I, myself, took nearly a two year break because I hit the "end game" and became bored. I sold all my gear and have started over. Not everyone is willing to do that hence my ideas.

The main problem I see with trying to develop truly involved content that will keep us entertained for years is there's a staff here of about 6. It's not a huge staff of highly paid designers and programmers that can rewrite the core of the game and develop truly new content. That being said our overlords must develop content within the confines of their resources and the best I can come up with is use what already exists and manipulate it to give us a legitimate reason to continue to explore and interact with it.

[Charon]

Cornbread

Well written. I played OSI shard for a long time and while I wasn't uber powerful I didn't have a hard time with many aspects of the game and most dungeons were no longer all that scary. Why did I stay so long? The community, that's why, which is the same reason many if not all of us play UO. Our friends here keep us coming back. It will be many years before I reach anything that resembles "end game" heck I just got my first relayer.
As players advance, yes it does become harder to motivate yourself to play. Once we lose goals or meet them too easily we lose ambition. Not sure what the answer is for ones such as yourself but there is an answer somewhere.

Cheers,

[Melkor]

The way I see it is most of the content that has been designed for the well geared player does not give a reward that is worth going for. The most difficult area, Sgail, gives some pants. The pants are nice if you don't already have a relayer in that spot. To get those pants you most likely already have a relayer so they will go in a box and sit there. If a quest gives an item we actually will use, an uber weapon, chances are we will either donate to get the ED to relayer them or buy ED from someone else who did, to relayer them. Either way that's what keeps the shard going strong.

I think this is a good point worth highlighting. When Sgail came out I already had a pants relayer so I tooled around in there a few times but didn't get much into it until I sold off about half my relayers. I had a few reasons for selling them off but I had a lot of fun building a suit using some of the best stuff the shard had to offer (Sgail pants, Christmas Necklace, Glittering Ice Wrap, Ancient Yumi and a few other items I like) and using relayers for the rest. Doing this breathed a lot of life back into my game that I didn't expect

[Versales]

Don't ask me how this would work, because I don't know the feasibility of it.

on the making difficult front - how about having a toggle switch someplace like [account or some such. That when it is switched to "on" it tracks the monsters you are killing and applies an algorithm that adds +1 hp and/or +1 dmg (the dmg might need to be tweaked) to that same monster type when that player engages it. Lets say you are killing earth eles with the toggle on lets say #1 has 100hp, and does 1dmg (to keep it simple, I'm a simpleton) the next one you attack has 101hp and does 2dmg and so on and so fourth. You would need to tactically figure out the best way to to conquer the UO world because you might not be able to even make it do lvl 3 of shame if you spent so long killing earth elision lvl 1. So you'd probably want to start by getting the monsters found on the lower levels more difficult first so essentially you'd be reverse dungeon crawling. and each kill would make your own life more difficult.

Now heres an added interesting idea. You could have a log of all monster types and the hp/dmg that you've worked them up to. And to make it interesting you can add in bonuses so say you get each eles to have an additional +500hp then the gold they drop would increase by X amount, and instead of dropping iron ore, they now drop dull copper. so you can change how you farm.

Now, you can just run around killing things willy nilly and making the game impossible for yourself, so the incentive is the bonus loot table, BUT you could then toggle the switch off and revert everything back to zero and you could be superman allover again. So you could seasonally quest better. But once the toggle is off your loot bonuses go away. You could even use it to test your skill as you add each additional relayer you become a little more powerful and can thus leave the difficulty on a little longer. The cool thing is this allows you to challenge yourself and make the game as challenging as you'd like, you might want to farm skeletons to get t the loot table where they are dropping 1k each and each have 1000hp or you can farm balrons and strive and strive to get to the next highest loot table. It would give those players with full sets of titans and BC's and such a slight edge because they can still push the monsters to higher levels but eventually, they would make the game nearly impossible for themselves, so they'd never be able to just leave the toggle on, eventually they'd reset. You could even work something like this into quests (I am thinking of the zombie event, when you go in the zombies start off easy but get progressively more difficult) Or new quests could be made, tiers of farming monsters difficulties (like mistvale, but for vets)

Now - the thing that comes to mind is: what happens to a monster you can't kill (lets say you farmed skeletons to the point where they each have 10000hp and do 1000 damage, for overkill's sake) It kills you and you give up, and toggle your switch off, now there is this skeleton god running around murdering folks? Well, how about a timer on the monster, so you engage it, and it becomes King Leoric (Diablo reference). Well, ten mins later it becomes something akin to a regular paragon skeleton (maybe with a different color, like green or something, that does NOT have a chance for a for a para chest) thus it takes away people trying to exploit toggling on and off and trying to farm paragons.

Just an idea I was thinking of on ho to make the game challenging for everyone but trying to not make it impossible for others.

[Cornbread]

A scalable dungeon or dungeons is a pretty decent idea. I'm assuming with their new talk of making multiple instances of things you could walk up to a dungeon and before entering you click on a stone and choose your difficulty. That way if I'm in Doom on hard I'll still be contending with everyone else on hard but you could be on easy. Could also do single instances of every dungeon for every person but that just sounds like a bad idea. Not sure of the logistics behind that but could at least make an easy/medium/hard of each dungeon. As I've previously stated, though, is that unless there's a real reason to go there chances are no one will continue to go there. More gold is great or better ore or whatever, but most people say they want a challenge and could get it by turning the scripts off and playing only what is provided in the game. What they really want is more $$$ with the same work. Something they can only get because they have more relayers than you. I'm not trying to poo on your idea because I actually like the thought. Just don't see it providing any length of a long term challenge without an awesome reward.

What I proposed was an idea to get something awesome after putting in some long term work. Now if you took your idea and tied it with the achievement system, or something similar, I could see you getting 1 pt per kill for easy and up for difficulty. You could then either earn an achievement reward or a currency or something that could get you something cool. This would not alienate new players or older players. It would provide you with an incentive to get more awesome gear to get the cool stuff easier but not make it mandatory.

This is really what I think we should be doing in this thread. Everyone throw ideas out and bounce them off each other. The GM's can read and if we do a good job implement a system that we all have thrown our 2 cents in and take all the fleshing out of the idea off them.