Excelsior

for the record, I never said I was upset. I mentioned i saw the potential for a problem from a certain perspective. It doesnt "upset" me, if I do run into the issue, I find a way to solve it. I was just bringing up another perspective thats all. I also understand, and accept that is how the market (and the game) works, Obviously since I still play, I'm good with it.

If you have kegs at 3000, and someone buys them all, and lists them for 6000, try listing yours at 6000 instead. There is a point, where it becomes easier to make them yourself than trying to "flip" them. When you have reached that point, you have found a great price point. People will buy them, and not resell them, because it will end up costing them money when nobody buys their stuff, and instead makes their own, and they get stuck with all the stuff they purchased from you.

I understand wanting to "help" the newbies. Thing is, cheap stuff doesn't help them. At least not in the long run. When that particular newbie you were "helping" decides to try and make some money, they MUST price "cheaply" (since they are competing with you), to be competitive, which means they have to do even more work, to get the gold they need to do whatever it is they want to do as a not quite so newbie.

In a way, the re-sellers are helping the newbies MORE THAN YOU, because they are pricing accurately, instead of cheaply.

Asmodean wrote:I understand wanting to "help" the newbies. Thing is, cheap stuff doesn't help them. At least not in the long run. When that particular newbie you were "helping" decides to try and make some money, they MUST price "cheaply" (since they are competing with you), to be competitive, which means they have to do even more work, to get the gold they need to do whatever it is they want to do as a not quite so newbie.

In a way, the re-sellers are helping the newbies MORE THAN YOU, because they are pricing accurately, instead of cheaply.

+1

- Wait, were basically discussing "Arbitrage" right?
- Also +1 to Asmodean comment (by the way my auto correct for Asmodean is hilarious)
- There must be something new in my water, because I never really post on these types of threads.
- Why does this feel like keg wars all over again.....
- My post provides no help and I apologize for this.

Edit* Sorry all I did now was unnecessarily bump this.....sry.
2nd Edit* Ok i guess i have to provide an opinion --> LONG LIVE LAISSEZ-FAIRE!!

I really think this needs to be a sticky or part of the WIKI or Codex or something. I can't count how many newbies have asked me to lower the prices of my vendor stuff or even the tools to below what the materials cost to make. Undercutting people is more of a problem than buying out somebody's vendor in my opinion.

Asmodean wrote:If you have kegs at 3000, and someone buys them all, and lists them for 6000, try listing yours at 6000 instead. There is a point, where it becomes easier to make them yourself than trying to "flip" them. When you have reached that point, you have found a great price point. People will buy them, and not resell them, because it will end up costing them money when nobody buys their stuff, and instead makes their own, and they get stuck with all the stuff they purchased from you.

I understand wanting to "help" the newbies. Thing is, cheap stuff doesn't help them. At least not in the long run. When that particular newbie you were "helping" decides to try and make some money, they MUST price "cheaply" (since they are competing with you), to be competitive, which means they have to do even more work, to get the gold they need to do whatever it is they want to do as a not quite so newbie.

In a way, the re-sellers are helping the newbies MORE THAN YOU, because they are pricing accurately, instead of cheaply.

this so much this.. I cannot count the number of times I have tried over and over to explain this concept in world chat and been flamed for being an out of touch old vet..

its 100% correct pricing in a race to the bottom hurts newbies MOST OF ALL.

I have a shop with what are probably low or market prices. With most things I sell, the price is based on the cost of making the item, plus a small profit to pay for the vendor. Because I don't sell expensive things and my vendors are not in a mall, my vendor costs are low.

The enjoyment I derive from running a shop lies in setting everything out nicely and the joy that new (and some older) players have expressed at discovering my wares. I don't advertise except to direct people to my shop if they post in world chat looking for something (and one over-excited forum post when I had got things all set up).

I certainly don't vendor for gold, here.

That said, I accept that other people do and I think flipping vendor goods is a valid way to play. I may or may not have done the same in other games in the past. And if you price your leather LRC pieces really cheap I'll probably buy it for my newbie suits

I agree that if you don't like people buying out your goods, then it is in your power to find a solution.

I don't agree that having low prices for new players forces them to have even lower prices if they choose to vendor in the future. The economy sorts itself out, if goods sell too fast either someone else will start up a market at higher prices or you have to raise your own.

But whining about low prices reeks of a desire for price-fixing by players who are out of touch with half of the player base. There was talk in world chat of vets not staying and the blame pointed at low-cost vendors. I think the greater danger is a server where the prices are so high that new players won't even feel like staying to give it a go.

Mystic wrote:But whining about low prices reeks of a desire for price-fixing by players who are out of touch with half of the player base. There was talk in world chat of vets not staying and the blame pointed at low-cost vendors. I think the greater danger is a server where the prices are so high that new players won't even feel like staying to give it a go.

to that I have to say.. 3-4 years ago when everything across the board was double or more in cost.. the playerbase was also double.. so didn't work that way..

Mystic wrote:I don't agree that having low prices for new players forces them to have even lower prices if they choose to vendor in the future. The economy sorts itself out, if goods sell too fast either someone else will start up a market at higher prices or you have to raise your own.

except that the evidence has shown that the economy doesn't sort itself out. it does just what asmodean says it does. true it doesn't "force" them to have lower prices but in order to sell they tend to go 1 better and undercut further. so thats not sorting itself out.. its a race to wholesale

Mystic wrote:But whining about low prices reeks of a desire for price-fixing by players who are out of touch with half of the player base. There was talk in world chat of vets not staying and the blame pointed at low-cost vendors. I think the greater danger is a server where the prices are so high that new players won't even feel like staying to give it a go.

First off - if a vet is 'out of touch' for having a realistic view of the shard economy, how can someone like yourself who is still quite new here be 'in touch' at all? Your statement was unnecessarily insulting to everyone who posted in agreement with the original statement - including myself.

As for the rest, I've staffed here for going on 4 years. When the prices were higher, the playerbase was much higher. That doesn't necessarily guarantee that the economy is the sole reason for the population change, but it's rather telling. People don't really stay on shards where the economy is too high or too low. Right now ours is in a low point and the statements that pricing items too low hurts everyone - including newer players - is fact. I have observed this myself in my years here, I've watched dozens and dozens of new players quit because they had to try to sell stuff so cheap to compete with 'everyone else', that they didn't make enough profit, got pissed off and left the shard.

So, please, try not to get worked up about someone making some statements. You're clearly worried that somehow the vets are going to convince us to start price-fixing, but that just isn't going to happen. People shouldn't price things too low, and it's silly to price things too high. If more players would price things fairly instead of constantly undercutting one another, then there'd be less worry and work for the staff to do regarding the economy, but taking away the free market aspect of it isn't an option we will even consider.

and my aim is really "fairly" not too high or too low

things like mules should be about 200k consider what a mule does.. technically 250k like 3 years ago (well if I wanted to be technical it was more like 300k - 500k, and 400-500k for a noble) made sense.. because of how much gold you can earn with one.

I am not talking over the top but when you regularly see things like kegs sold for less than the material costs..
or armors sold at less than the material costs...
or artifacts that in the last 3 years have been more difficult to produce due to account binding (goc) actually drop by 2/3rds in average retail..
or powerscrolls
etc etc etc

and ed prices remaining stable.. that really makes it rougher for those transitioning from artifacts to relayers..

as for me benefiting and 'price fixing' yeah I sell lesser artifacts (for more than most), I sell maxxed cusidhe (for more than most), and maxxed flamingos (oh yeah I am the only game in town)

what I am by and large arguing that should have a better price.. I don't sell..

I make most of my money hunting if I feel the need i can yank down several million a day, and far more 'vets' are in that group then there are ubervendors. ubervendors are more often the group i mentioned before. those transitioning from artifacts to relayers. so by pricing low you are only hurting yourselves..

thats me being realistic not out of touch, and its also me being compassionate

I will own that my last statement was probably unnecessarily insulting and I almost refrained from posting that paragraph. Sadly, I did not. My apologies.

I'm not actually worked up about anything and prefer in general to live and let live, as long as no-one is being harmed. I simply wanted to offer the current new player perspective to the discussion as it seems that perhaps this is an experience that vets have not had, seeing as it is being said the server was much different in the past.

If the prices are low it is because factors in this small community have led it to be this way. High ratio of items on the market to available customers will result in lower prices. Simple supply and demand. Expecting others to change for you is not realistic and complaining about it is not likely to have any effect apart from making yourself upset.

I think the issue of helping newbies is a separate issue from the economy. Knowledge is the best way to help a new player to any game, not money or items. As trite as it sounds, teaching someone to fish is better for everyone.

Advice on where to hunt for a given gear/stat level is probably the best thing you can do. A close second is providing tips on what progress path to take, e.g. which skills you might want first and what gear you should think about getting first. All of those things are on the wiki, but there are times when one-on-one advice is needed.

I'll give you a concrete example: Max out hiding and stealth as soon as you can. When I was a newbie, I read that on the wiki and overheard it in global chat. I cannot count how many times having 100+ hiding and stealth has saved me from complete loss of gear (especially because I tend to be reckless!). That tidbit is way, way more useful than a low price on whatever item is the current bomb diggity. I'll benefit from having good corpse retrieval skills for as long as I play on this shard. But I can outgrow an item after a few weeks or months.

Mystic wrote:If the prices are low it is because factors in this small community have led it to be this way. High ratio of items on the market to available customers will result in lower prices. Simple supply and demand. Expecting others to change for you is not realistic and complaining about it is not likely to have any effect apart from making yourself upset.

this is not a new justification, and everytime it is raised it is as incorrect as it was before. new players sign up all the time, and old ones quit, old accounts decay what does happen is people get impatient. prices only drop because players allow them to drop, give in to aggressive haggling, and get into pricing wars with each other.

Here is the major difference between 3 years ago and now. The sellers of that era didn't wiggle. they had a backbone about things. I can remember a pm debate between me and Layfon Alsief about my 120 archery powerscroll. It was friendly and humorous. I attempted to haggle it got silly... Price stayed the same at the end of the conversation as it was at the beginning.

people love to argue supply and demand supply and demand all day long. But its really a flawed comparison for this game. Demand isn't the same as a real world economy. In a real world economy it takes years for new people to enter it. Here it take's days. we don't have to wait for someone to go from being a baby, to entering the workforce to be a new car customer.

Make no mistake I am not personally upset by the low prices, I am confused by them. All that is happening is you guys as a whole are shooting yourselves in the foot eventually making the high end gear like relayers, and endgame weapon mods, house links, extra house slots, extra pet slots more difficult to attain without Donation.

On one level this makes me happy more of you donating means more people funding my sandbox. But some of my early relayers I funded from item sales.

here is a real world now vs. then
basic wind's edge relayer is 500eds more or less or around 25 mill gold in eds

say you wanted to fund one with GOC's

then no problem.. I can sell 5 goc's and I am funded
now you'd have to sell 13 or 14 at what people currently accept.

what happened here? is there more goc's (from my tours of the goc dungeons and those of my guild.. Nope not the case)
are there more of them on vendors, nope there were WAY more then.

The difference is the attitudes of the players. the players 3 years ago were more willing to wait to sell a big ticket item. Thats really all it amounts to is patience. there is always a buyer at the accurate price. you can sell it faster cheaper sure, but the cost is the next guy who goes to sell gets this from his potential buyers "so and so got it for _______ so its worth ______" or someone asks what a goc costs and the guy who bought it cheap says "its worth ______"

thats how the price of something gets set on excelsior.. "supply and demand" didn't have anything to do with it.

the other way is if both vendors advertising the item worldchat the price.. back then way more players way more coincidental items for sale at the same time.. the difference again was the attitude of the player.

person a. then [c selling gem of completion pm with offers
(and the player wouldn't accept below 6.5 mill gold, and honestly why should they a goc takes 21 days to make, the dungeons take a pretty geared out guy to solo completely, in certain ones if you are below 450hp you likely died a few times spent insurance etc etc etc)

person b. then [c selling gem of completion for 6.5 mill gold pm if you want it
(person b didn't under value the item because he valued his time)

with this particular item whats goofy is the collection pieces weren't account bound at the time like they are now so goc's could be made EASIER then then now.

now
person a) [c selling gem of completion for 3m pm if you want it

person b) [c selling gem of completion for 2.8m pm

person a) [c selling gem of completion for 2.5m

supply and demand again had nothing to do with situations like this...

As far as me being upset.. no not really confused by the behavioral choice sure.



its more this.. why because EDS have stayed the same in value that means
Making a Weapon One handed costs the same
Changing a Sott headpeace to be not a bearmask costs the same
making relayer armor costs the same
linking houses costs the same
removing an artifact tag costs the same
etc etc etc

and who needs these services? me or you?

There are many layers to this subject and I suspect we are perhaps talking about different things. I'm not talking about GoC and do think that something that takes 21 days and a decent amount of effort to gain should be valued as such.

On the other hand, if you look at powerscrolls, the effort involved is much less and luck plays a large role. These have dropped in price even in the six months I have been here and I don't think it's because players are somehow lacking in backbone or character. As a side note, frankly it is insulting that you continually refer to new players as such.

Rather, as more powerscrolls enter the server each day, players use and no longer need them and the amount of potential customers grows less. If there are not as many new players coming through who need PS, then the client base grows smaller while the stock levels rise and we see diminished demand and lower prices. I'm sure this will fluctuate when an influx of new players comes through again or perhaps seasonally in holiday times when people have more time to play.

In this same time frame, bonecrushers have increased in price. Again I would not attribute this to the personal qualities of people selling them but rather the fact that BCs have become the "it" weapon for relayers (the merit of which can be debated elsewhere!). So more people want BCs, supply stays mostly the same (always someone in the gauntlet!) and the price goes up.

Small end items that I sell on my vendors - runebooks for example - do have a variation in price across the server. While, as I said earlier, my prices are based on material costs and not on what other people charge, I am aware that for the most part my prices are low.

However, whether I sold rune books for 2000gp or the price that I do (which is over 500% markup on materials I should add), I'm never going to fund a relayer with the sales.

But that is fine, I'm very happy with tinkering around in my little shop for fun, not profit. A large part of that fun comes from people appreciating my regular stocking and low prices. Which I'd lose if I took your advice.

there is stuff that is out of whack in a minor way like your runebooks (which sounds reasonable) its more the guys who price below material cost.

and there is artifacts... which are majorly out of whack.

my intention wasn't to insult, from reading what you just said if you had a goc for sale you wouldn't be willing to accept such a price, therefore my statement isn't about you. yOu stated you price based on materials plus profit so my statement also isn't about you.

powerscrolls I barely bring up because thats a tedius market in the first place, the things that make it so is the powerscroll bags, granted less of the unlimited use bags are in operation today than before. but there is alot of powerscrolls.. the solve there is unfortunately more drastic.. Only thing I could think of is alternative uses for 105 110 or 115 powerscrolls or incentive driven things such as destash putting a premium on them.

a big part of it is backbone though and respecting others. and although you may not be one of the relentless undercutters (meaning my blanket statements don't apply to you) there are those that are.. and unfortunately if I insult them.