Auction?...... Input?.... update?

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Muolke
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Muolke »

ButteryBiscuits wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:41 pm


In the final analysis, this is not a paid shard. We do not have to pay anything to be here or get anything. All the admins (now and then, i believe) have always been volunteers. Many people who have never worked in the realm of IT, servers, coding, etc have this warped idea that a "free shard" means that not only do they not have to pay to play but that there are no real world costs to keep the shard operational. That is not true. Beyond the often times significant costs of servers and their upkeep, the monthly fees to have the shard hosted in a reliable, accessible environment- there is the HUGELY time consuming, life sacrificing suck to create new content.
Just stop with the nonsense. This shard is as "free" as are the public roads we all use to drive on. While we don't pay a fee to access those roads, they are paid for by someone who pays taxes just like this shard exists because of all the people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy EDs.

Make no mistake, this shard is a profitable venture. Very profitable. Let's not pretend that the lights are kept on out of the kindness of someones heart. If ED purchases stopped today the lights would be turned off quicker than Usain Bolt can run a 100m sprint.
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ButteryBiscuits
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by ButteryBiscuits »

Well, I have wondered why you have been so insistent lately that +C needs to get out of the shard and hand it over to someone else. "very profitable" sounds like a buzzword for "too profitable". This is not socialism and no one here has the right to say what is or is not "too profitable" or "not profitable enough" except the guy putting the time and effort into it. It is also not a public utility or government sanctioned service financed by forced harvesting of a % of our incomes. To say it is so is a analogical fallacy which seeks to force the admin to "step up" to some level determined by the person with the loudest voice.

I stand by what I said before- enjoy it and contribute something positive to the gameplay. Or go join a shard where griefing is welcome. Certainly putting keyrings that can be collected for free on a TC vendor for $42k to try and rip off new players is a pretty big red flag about the nature of someone's character and makes comments they have about profit and responsibility very suspect.
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Muolke
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Muolke »

ButteryBiscuits wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:09 pm
Well, I have wondered why you have been so insistent lately that +C needs to get out of the shard and hand it over to someone else. "very profitable" sounds like a buzzword for "too profitable". This is not socialism and no one here has the right to say what is or is not "too profitable" or "not profitable enough" except the guy putting the time and effort into it. It is also not a public utility or government sanctioned service financed by forced harvesting of a % of our incomes. To say it is so is a analogical fallacy which seeks to force the admin to "step up" to some level determined by the person with the loudest voice.

I stand by what I said before- enjoy it and contribute something positive to the gameplay. Or go join a shard where griefing is welcome. Certainly putting keyrings that can be collected for free on a TC vendor for $42k to try and rip off new players is a pretty big red flag about the nature of someone's character and makes comments they have about profit and responsibility very suspect.
I think you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Nowhere have I advocated for or been insistent that +C hand over the shard to someone else. Posing the question does not equal being insistent.

I've also never said the shard is too profitable, nor do I care how profitable it is. The issue herein lies with the repeated statement that this is a "free shard" and your specific statement addressing the costs to run the shard. All theses costs are paid for by players that have over the years donated. Without these players this shard wouldn't be here today.

Maybe some players don't want more GM involvement and would rather AFK farm all day with fully-automated scripts and only get jailed every once in a while for it rather than all the time...but that's a small minority of the player base and most know exactly who those players are.

The purpose of this thread is to get an honest update of what players can expect and where the shard is headed. If the answer is status quo then so be it. If the answer is something else then that's fine as well.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by scroft391 »

Muolke wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:09 am

Make no mistake, this shard is a profitable venture. Very profitable. Let's not pretend that the lights are kept on out of the kindness of someones heart. If ED purchases stopped today the lights would be turned off quicker than Usain Bolt can run a 100m sprint.
This is a free shard no matter how you want to categorize it otherwise. You can choose to pay more or not. The most I have paid in over 5 years is $100. That's it. It was a choice not a mandatory fee. You also do not need to spend money to progress in the game or get items. You just need to put in time and effort. By every definition it is free. Just because someone CHOOSES to donate and accelerate the natural process does not mean they are entitled to anything more then the rewards they received. As a person that doesn't donate money, I fear that these criticisms like this can push +C to just say screw it and close up shop. I do not believe he is making enough money to put up with people complaining and not recognizing the work he does to keep this place alive.

Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Zeratul »

What work?

You said “I do not believe he is making enough money to put up with people complaining and not recognizing the work he does to keep this place alive.”

What work? We’ve had a “part 0” for how long? Putting a stone in town center with a piece of candy isn’t work…

I think Muolke is right. If the money stopped, the server would stop…
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Muolke »

scroft391 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:39 pm
Muolke wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:09 am

Make no mistake, this shard is a profitable venture. Very profitable. Let's not pretend that the lights are kept on out of the kindness of someones heart. If ED purchases stopped today the lights would be turned off quicker than Usain Bolt can run a 100m sprint.
This is a free shard no matter how you want to categorize it otherwise. You can choose to pay more or not. The most I have paid in over 5 years is $100. That's it. It was a choice not a mandatory fee. You also do not need to spend money to progress in the game or get items. You just need to put in time and effort. By every definition it is free. Just because someone CHOOSES to donate and accelerate the natural process does not mean they are entitled to anything more then the rewards they received. As a person that doesn't donate money, I fear that these criticisms like this can push +C to just say screw it and close up shop. I do not believe he is making enough money to put up with people complaining and not recognizing the work he does to keep this place alive.

Just my 2 cents.
The reality is that it is called a "donation" to circumvent restrictions put on by the original UO developers. When you "donate" money to the shard you're doing so in order to receive the reward that comes along with it.

While purchasing EDs (aka donating) is certainly voluntary, the survival of the shard has a direct connection to those ED purchases. Nobody is entitled to anything extra because they purchased EDs and I have yet to see anyone try and make that point. There's a difference between asking for special treatment and asking for a call to action...any action. This thread isn't even that. This thread just asks for an honest update as to what players should expect moving forward. That's all. It could be the status quo or something completely different.

My guess is that it isn't just John Warren who wants a truthful update rather than promises made and then broken. That's all anyone in this thread is asking for.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by qbf »

The thread is going through the same circles these style of threads usually do :(

I originally wrote it to see if +c would provide us with some input. I understand he is on holidays at the moment, so it might be a while before we get a reply. Although there was a brief reply on the Roadmap thread, once it was pointed out that he had said "any day now". The reply shifted that position to "any week now". So I am hoping that he's read this, not so that his feelings get crushed, but so that he provides some input in the forums to let us know what's going on.

As Muolke said, the answer might well be "this is it, for now". If that's the case, fine, no dramas. But some sort of input so we know that we aren't left completely alone beyond just "I'm not unplugging it yet" would be nice.

I am also sure that during his holidays +c is imagining those lovely new auction items he can create for us on his return... :lool:
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Wil »

Muolke wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:09 am
Just stop with the nonsense. This shard is as "free" as are the public roads we all use to drive on. While we don't pay a fee to access those roads, they are paid for by someone who pays taxes just like this shard exists because of all the people who have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy EDs.
Last I checked, UOEX was not a government-funded service to which anyone is entitled to anything. If it shut down tomorrow I'd be very disappointed but I'm not some whiny little man-child that I'd feel somehow "betrayed."

Muolke wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:09 am
If ED purchases stopped today the lights would be turned off quicker than Usain Bolt can run a 100m sprint.
Smells like buyer's remorse. As it turns out, you can only buy what's for sale. Spots on +C's priority list aren't for sale. Or heck, maybe they are if you offered him enough money. But they're definitely not for sale via the donations page.

Muolke wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:09 am
The reality is that it is called a "donation" to circumvent restrictions put on by the original UO developers.
So this is a very interesting claim. Can you cite a source? I wasn't aware of anyone having actual permission to run a non-EA UO shard so long as they followed some sort of rules.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Muolke »

Wil wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:24 am

Last I checked, UOEX was not a government-funded service to which anyone is entitled to anything. If it shut down tomorrow I'd be very disappointed but I'm not some whiny little man-child that I'd feel somehow "betrayed."

Smells like buyer's remorse. As it turns out, you can only buy what's for sale. Spots on +C's priority list aren't for sale. Or heck, maybe they are if you offered him enough money. But they're definitely not for sale via the donations page.

So this is a very interesting claim. Can you cite a source? I wasn't aware of anyone having actual permission to run a non-EA UO shard so long as they followed some sort of rules.
1. Government funded = taxpayer money (someone is always paying for it)
2. Valiant effort with your underhanded attempt at an insult but…swing and a miss.
3. I haven’t donated in quite some time, and what I have donated in the in the past I always understood it as being purchasing EDs and not expecting anything other than that in return.
4. This thread was started by the OP to find out what exactly is on +C’s priority list, not to add/remove/change other priorities to it. Not sure why this is such a hard concept for you and a few others to comprehend.
5. You don’t need permission to run an UO shard, especially now that EA doesn’t run their own shards. What you need permission for is to use the intellectual property created by another entity and profit from it. This is why every freeshard has a legal disclaimer attached to its “donations” and doesn’t charge for anything directly .
6. Get off your high chair and stop being so obsessed with me. I’m flattered but your time and energy would probably be better spent on improving your in-game character (especially considering how long you’ve been around) rather than seek attention and hurl insults on an online message board.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Wil »

Muolke wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:28 am
someone who pays taxes just like this shard [...]
1. Government funded = taxpayer money
Which is NOT just like this shard.
Muolke wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:28 am
5. You don’t need permission to run an UO shard, especially now that EA doesn’t run their own shards. What you need permission for is to use the intellectual property created by another entity and profit from it. This is why every freeshard has a legal disclaimer attached to its “donations” and doesn’t charge for anything directly .
That is a MYTH. The law makes no distinction between for-profit and non-profit when copying an intellectual property without the owner's permission. In Canada, where the shard and game client download are hosted, the law only makes a distinction for "fair dealing," a short list of behaviors in which monetary compensation is not a factor. In fact, Canada's definition of fair dealing is even narrower than U.S. fair use. Ireland, where the web site is located, has an even narrower definition of fair dealing than Canada, removing the normal parody and satire from the list. And of course the U.S., where Paypal is located, has the DMCA which expands the laws' impact to software derived from reverse-engineering a protected work such as the shard software itself. Some parts of the EU get even weirder, allowing third parties to sue on behalf of the owners without the owners' knowledge or permission.

The only way describing payment as donations would make a legal difference is if the owner of the intellectual property explicitly allowed folks to make derivative works of the game client and data files on condition that the use not be for profit. So I ask you to offer a citation where OSI or EA did that, else it didn't happen.

Obviously EA isn't going after anybody and at this late date it would be strange if they did. Heck, they'd probably lose money from folks who still maintain their official accounts quitting in protest. Nevertheless, your claim that "you don’t need permission to run an UO shard," is incorrect.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Muolke »

Wil wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:35 pm
That is a MYTH. The law makes no distinction between for-profit and non-profit when copying an intellectual property without the owner's permission. In Canada, where the shard and game client download are hosted, the law only makes a distinction for "fair dealing," a short list of behaviors in which monetary compensation is not a factor. In fact, Canada's definition of fair dealing is even narrower than U.S. fair use. Ireland, where the web site is located, has an even narrower definition of fair dealing than Canada, removing the normal parody and satire from the list. And of course the U.S., where Paypal is located, has the DMCA which expands the laws' impact to software derived from reverse-engineering a protected work such as the shard software itself. Some parts of the EU get even weirder, allowing third parties to sue on behalf of the owners without the owners' knowledge or permission.

The only way describing payment as donations would make a legal difference is if the owner of the intellectual property explicitly allowed folks to make derivative works of the game client and data files on condition that the use not be for profit. So I ask you to offer a citation where OSI or EA did that, else it didn't happen.

Obviously EA isn't going after anybody and at this late date it would be strange if they did. Heck, they'd probably lose money from folks who still maintain their official accounts quitting in protest. Nevertheless, your claim that "you don’t need permission to run an UO shard," is incorrect.
Ultima Online TOS:
"Official Service. Ultima Online has been designed by Origin Systems for play only on the Service. The Software is licensed to you for play on the Service only. Origin does not grant you a license to use the Software for any other purpose. You agree to play Ultima Online only on the Service and not through any other means. You further agree not to create or provide any other means through which others may play Ultima Online, for example, through server emulators. You may not reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the Software, including any proprietary communications protocol used by the Software. You acknowledge that you do not have the right to create, publish, distribute, create derivative works from or use any graphics, audiovisual display, software programs, utilities, applications, emulators or tools derived from or created for Ultima Online unless specifically authorized in writing by Origin Systems."

You don't need approval from EA to run a freeshard not because of legalities but because EA isn't losing money on a 3rd party running a free UO shard. That changes if the free shard all of a sudden charges players. You're violating the TOS either way but if you're not profiting from it they just look the other way. That's why you don't need permission in order to run a freeshard. While legally you still do, in practice you're not going to get sued by EA for doing it. It's intellectual property which is protected by contract law rather than any of the other laws you mentioned.

Which once again is why the UO shards that still exist allow for voluntary "donations" (ie purchase EDs) and don't have a way for you to specifically purchase any items in game for monetary compensation.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Wil »

Muolke wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:13 pm
"You further agree not to create or provide any other means through which others may play Ultima Online, for example, through server emulators."

"You don't need approval from EA to run a freeshard"
Dude, work on your reading comprehension. The quote from the TOS says exactly the opposite of your claim.
Muolke wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:13 pm
It's intellectual property which is protected by contract law rather than any of the other laws you mentioned.
Where did you come up with this? It's protected by copyright law. Contracts can be used to grant additional rights to the owner of a copy (which clearly hasn't happened in the TOS you quoted) but the base law in question is copyrights. For which you'll find no exception based on payment.
Muolke wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:13 pm
in practice you're not going to get sued by EA for doing it.
Wil wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:35 pm
Obviously EA isn't going after anybody and at this late date it would be strange if they did.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by qbf »

You guys are going to get my thread locked.
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by ButteryBiscuits »

On the plus side, if they lock the thread.... they had to at least read your post. So you might get an answer when +C locks it! :lool:
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Re: Auction?...... Input?.... update?

Post by Silent »

Muolke wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:33 pm
ButteryBiscuits wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:09 pm
Well, I have wondered why you have been so insistent lately that +C needs to get out of the shard and hand it over to someone else.
Nowhere have I advocated for or been insistent that +C hand over the shard to someone else. Posing the question does not equal being insistent.
Don't get me wrong here but I can't just let this pass...
Do you guys remember this post? https://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13268

Thing is, +C honestly said it wouldn't be a 60 days nor a 250 days thing a year ago. If you want to use you "donation tax road analogy" why don't take the "thousands" and just pay a normal EA account? They have a more than a 1-man army and can gladly listen to every complaint. Or not...

Now lets cut the bad arguments and the drama and just wait for info... +C can clearly see what is happening to the player base. It is his choice. No one will tell you the truth for you all to panic. enjoy the ride, or the sink, or whatever... :)

not satisfied? stop donating, play other shards or other games. Be happy!
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