Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

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Nick
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Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by Nick »

FYI: Double shot is better (has more DPS) than Armor Perice as long as you have any spell hit on your yumi, can be mounted and you don't care about ammo (arrow) usage. Both have the same mana requirements. The advantage DS has over AP increases drastically the closer to the end game you get (as measured in DPS) as you have more spells on your Yumi, and much higher SDI. I have 3 spells at 60% (Lighting, Fire-ball and Harm) on my main bow and 290% SDI.
*Note 1: My suit has the max DI
*Note 2: No spells, debuffs, or buffs were used during the test. Numbers are low because normally enemy of one, consecrate weapon, divine furry, Corps Skin, discordance and self buffs (str potion, and bless, Angel Form (+24 STR and +24 weapon skill) would be used to maximize dmg to target.

With a crafted Yumi: (NOT Exceptional)
Using the same Palace Guard as the target Double-shot averaged 86 dmg with the projectile DMG (Arrows); AP averaged 92 with the projectile DMG (arrow). This is about a 6.5% lower physical dmg (delt by arrow alone) with Double Shot verse Armor Peirce. The double shot had a low of 41 dmg per arrow and a high of 45 per arrow; AP had a low of 92 and a high of 102 per arrow.

With Exceptional crafted Yumi: (so crafted 35%+ DI applies over cap)
Using the same Palace Guard as the target Double-shot averaged 92 dmg with the projectile DMG (Arrows); AP averaged 97 with the projectile DMG (arrow). This is about a 5.2% lower physical dmg (delt by arrow alone) with Double Shot verse Armor Peirce. The double shot had a low of 42 dmg per arrow and a high of 47 per arrow; AP had a low of 96 and a high of 107 per arrow.

With any spells at all on your yumi, you with do significantly more dmg with the double shot because the spells can hit with each arrow. On the same palace guard lighting does 70 dmg, fireball does 30, and harm does 19. So with AP your DMG potential is 97-216 (no spells hit all spells hit); double-shot your DMG potential is 92-335 with twice the probability of a spell hitting at least once with DS verse AP.
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qbf
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by qbf »

The experiment and data is nice.... But to be fair this was already pretty well known I thought.
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Nick
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by Nick »

It should be, however, it was a discussion in WC a few days ago. I used AP for years until showed me the error of my ways. As always just for the sake of being obstinate someone was arguing that up is actually down, white is really black, and 2-2=5 because they really believe it does. Did not want young impressionables going off of wrong information just because someone argued for it in WC.
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by Zanzi »

Someone told me about this after about playing for 7 months so wished I would have known sooner. I think well-known to most vets but not all. Even as I was using DS, I was told I should use AP from a long time vet. I do agree with you having data is like Nick is SO NICE!
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by culichi »

Nick wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:06 pm

With Exceptional crafted Yumi: (so crafted 35%+ DI applies over cap)
id always heard that exceptional crafted weps gave a di bonus but is it really 35% bonus? also what if i raise di to 50 on it with sharpening blade will the bonus be 50% or still just the 35%?

sorry if the question is exceptionally dumb but ive always had a hard time with understanding wep mechanics in this game.
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by Nick »

culichi wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:30 pm
id always heard that exceptional crafted weps gave a di bonus but is it really 35% bonus? also what if i raise di to 50 on it with a sharpening blade will the bonus be 50% or still just the 35%?
sorry if the question is exceptionally dumb but ive always had a hard time with understanding wep mechanics in this game.
based on the numbers I reported above exceptional had a 5.43% increase in DMG for AP and a 6.97 increase for Double-shot it certainly isn't the full 35%. I would need to run the test again looking for this exact answer (and I will because I'm curious) to crunch off the raw numbers. I deleted the spreadsheet I was typing in. I really should run a test on a looted bow before and after adding 50% DI from a sharpening stone too. I always wondered if it was just for looks or if it made any difference (I added it to my forever bow, and feel it bumped dmg a little but have no hard numbers) once you hit the hard DI cap for gear.

Just FYI when you are doing dmg (with a yumi for sure, likely with all weapons) there are three RNG dmg potentials (I'll call them Low, Mid and High) with each hit you strike. As long as the conditions are the same (str level, no addes spells, same target resists ect...) you will always get the one of the same three numbers when running a test. On the palace guard with AP for example 96, 102 and 107 were the low mid and high numbers; based on the RNG for that hit with an exceptional bow. With double shot it was 42 for low, 45 for mid, and 47 for high with exceptional (that was just one of the two arrows) and the RNG happens for each individual arrow so you could get a 47 and 42 on the same "double" shot hit or a 47 and 47 it seemed truly random with none of the three being over-represented.

hope I was helpful... don't hold your breath for test results im clearing ft carson right now on my way to fort jackson so it might take a while
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by qbf »

culichi wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:30 pm
Nick wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:06 pm

With Exceptional crafted Yumi: (so crafted 35%+ DI applies over cap)
id always heard that exceptional crafted weps gave a di bonus but is it really 35% bonus? also what if i raise di to 50 on it with sharpening blade will the bonus be 50% or still just the 35%?

sorry if the question is exceptionally dumb but ive always had a hard time with understanding wep mechanics in this game.
Equip a normal (non-exceptional) weapon (eg yumi). Look at your damage in the status bar (you need the full status bar out). Take off normal yumi and equip exceptional crafted yumi and look at status bar. That is where the Exceptional bonus is applied, it is applied in a different way to the actual stat "Damage Increase" on the weapon. Then once you know your numbers (and that's where the RNG part that Nick was mentioning comes in) you apply all the other modifiers. Exceptional boosts the actual base dmg of the weapon and is used in all calculations past that point. See the following:

Damage is calculated by

1) Determine Base Damage by taking a random value based on the weapon's minimum and maximum damage. <-- Exceptional adds to the min/max of the weapon at this point.
2) Apply stat and skill modifiers derived from magic item properties to base stats and skills.
3) Determine Damage Bonus percentages according to the formulas shown below.
4) Determine Base Damage Bonus% by adding all four bonuses.
5) Add Damage Increase item modifier to Base Damage Bonus% if needed. <-- The stat damage increase is applied at this point (capped at 100% from gear)
6) Determine Final Damage to be applied.

The calculations in step 3) are as follows:

Tactics Damage Bonus% = Tactics ÷ 1.6 (Add 6.25% if Tactics >= 100)
Anatomy Damage Bonus% = (Anatomy ÷ 2) (Add 5% if Anatomy >= 100)
Lumberjack Damage Bonus% = Lumberjack ÷ 5 (Add 10% if Lumberjacking >= 100)
Strength Damage Bonus% = Strength * 0.3 (Add 5% if Strength >= 100)

Final calculations

Final Damage Bonus% = Tactics Bonus + Anatomy Bonus + Lumber Bonus + Strength Bonus + Damage Increase Items*
Final Damage = Base Damage + (Base Damage * Final Damage Bonus%)

The full set of calculations explains why expectional doesnt increase the final output damage by a straight 35%. It just pumps the base dmg of the weapon by 35% which is a modifier in subsequent calculations.

That info at the end is ripped straight off stratics, the oldest, and usually best, source of UO info. Found here: https://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/combat.php

It's actually all rather simple. Rather than having people just make shit up, I thought I would clarify how it works. If you want to know about weapons and how to best optimise them on Excelsior John Warren is the man. I've designed and created more weapons than most of you have had days on the server. It's all I do really. I will always respond with solid information (specific to UOEX's structure) about weapons if anyone asks.

I am also an expert in weapons pricing. I keep a sharp eye on current trends and prices in looted, crafted and leveled weapons. If you need any info on weapons. [pm John Warren.

FYI 95% of leveled weapons and looted weapons I see are overpriced, so message me if you want to see if you are getting ripped off or not.

Lastly a cheap plug: Tamara in TC (dressed in red, front and centre west, AKA the best spot) also sells the most affordable looted and leveled weapons going. Her stock fluctuates and weapons on her move very quickly, so check back often.
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by MagicUser »

I can't really add much as Warren has already covered it, but I also did extensive "testing." Which lead me to the conclusion that the equations (surprise surprise) were reliable.

Initial Discusion-
https://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12880

Relayer Spreadsheet w/ base damage calculation-
https://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13667

I believe there is also an EasyUO script for showing that as well. Pretty sure that the one Devlin had originally didn't work for the lumberjacking bonus on axe's though. At the end of the day... The character status bar is your best friend when it comes to comparing weapons. It is more reliable than anything else, but you have to have the weapon first. There is no need to be testing base damage multipliers (like exceptional weapons) as its already there. Only things it doesn't account for are spells, mob resistances, slayers, and specials (like armor pierce and double shot).
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wesmith
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by wesmith »

culichi wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:30 pm
Nick wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:06 pm

With Exceptional crafted Yumi: (so crafted 35%+ DI applies over cap)
id always heard that exceptional crafted weps gave a di bonus but is it really 35% bonus? also what if i raise di to 50 on it with sharpening blade will the bonus be 50% or still just the 35%?

sorry if the question is exceptionally dumb but ive always had a hard time with understanding wep mechanics in this game.
If I equip an exceptionally crafted weapon my gain in damage is nearly 20% added to the base min and max damage of the weapon, this bonus comes from the word "exceptional" (IMHO) and not from the common 35% DI normally found on crafted weapons. The 35% only increases the regular DI from gear (capped at 100%). My char with a normal yumi gets a 81-90 DMG on the status window, 85-94 with an exceptionally crafted one.

Adding a +20% on a regular yumi to calculate the damage of a crafted one:
20% of 18 (min yumi dmg) + regular yumi dmg (non exceptional) 81 = 18*20/100+81 = 84.6
20% of 20 (max yumi dmg) + regular yumi dmg (non exceptional) 81 = 20*20/100+90 = 94
regular_vs_exc.jpg
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I suppose that the 84.6 becomes an 85 because the game does some kind of approximation.

With a +35% the min dmg of an exceptional one should be 87.3. This value is too high compared with the number in status window. 97 the max dmg: too much again.

Dagger 11-12 base dmg i have a complessive 45-49 dmg in status window, 47-52 witn an exc. crafted:
20% of 10 (min dagger dmg) + regular dagger dmg (non exceptional) 45 = 10*20/100+45 = 47
20% of 11 (max dagger dmg) + regular dagger dmg (non exceptional) 49 = 11*20/100+49 = 51.2

Again, about the 51.2 that becomes a 52... idk what happens when decimals are involved.

Taking in count a +20% bonus i've never had in the comparison, between crafted and non crafted, a difference superior than 1 (dmg) in the status window.

And last but not least, if you are curious, this is my real status window:
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:lol:
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by MagicUser »

Actually, its +4. Although 20/100*20 is 4, other base damages would start to deviate (18 is already 3.6) in any calculation you make.

If you are wondering why, you can check out the link below.
https://www.uoforum.com/wiki/index.php/ ... _Modifiers

Devlin brought this to my attention in the 1st of the two forum debates I posted above.
Devlin wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:50 pm
MagicUser wrote:Alright I did some testing with my various weapons and decided to do a exceptional weapon bonus. I was told that the bonus was a flat 35%. It appears to be a lot closer to 20%. Every test that I have conducted with exceptional vs non exceptional, 20% bonus for exceptional has given me the right answer.
The 35% is just the damage increase stat you see on the weapon itself, similar to other armor pieces. The exceptional tag comes with a hidden, inherent damage bonus that isn't shown anywhere. It's +4 damage bonus compared to non-exceptional/looted weapons (to both min/max, although rounding may make it look like 3-5). I'm pretty sure it's from the old vanquishing/might/ruin system.

Code: Select all

// Old quality bonus:
#if false
/* Apply quality offset
* : Low : -4
* : Regular : 0
* : Exceptional : +4
*/
damage += ((int)m_Quality - 1) * 4.0;
#endif

/* Apply damage level offset
* : Regular : 0
* : Ruin : 1
* : Might : 3
* : Force : 5
* : Power : 7
* : Vanq : 9
*/
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wesmith
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by wesmith »

Ok we had the answer right in front of our eyes:
exceptional_dmg_bonus.jpg
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The question mark near the DI stats is new to me and appears only if the weapon is crafted.

Well just to clarify this +20% base dmg is uncapped.
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by Nick »

Is this a read-out from a levelable weapon menu? I've never seen that little question mark... NICE
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by MagicUser »

I rescind my statement, Devlin and I were wrong. It is a rounded 20% bonus, where the highest rounding is used for both.
Dagger (10-11) -> (44-49) + 20% -> (46-51). max([round(+2), round(+2.2)]) -> +2.
Double Axe (15-17) -> (72-82) + 20% -> (75-85). max([round(+3), round(+3.4)]) -> +3.
Bow (16-18) -> (71-80) + 20% -> (75-84). max([round(+3.2), round(+3.6)]) -> +4.

Yes, I crafted and verified these results.
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wesmith
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by wesmith »

There is one thing that still make me curious about crafted weapons damage, my yumi says 35% DI when i mouseover it, but the leveable weapon interface says 15. The difference in what is written on the weapon and what is written on lvl menu happens only with crafted weapons.
DI_15_35.jpg
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Anyway while equipped this weapon gives the right amount of DI (35 not 15).
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Re: Double shot is better verse Armor Perice

Post by Zalia »

How does that compare to using Double Shot with Armour Piercing dipped arrows?
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