Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Keep track of this topic. All announcements and short-term rules will be written here.
mineiro
Adept Scribe
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by mineiro »

You didn't post all messages, hmm funny thing...
For the others I am sorry I got off the post, I got carried away and will not continue with this.
User avatar
Muolke
Legendary Scribe
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 6:30 pm

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Muolke »

mineiro wrote:You didn't post all messages, hmm funny thing...
For the others I am sorry I got off the post, I got carried away and will not continue with this.
I wouldn't worry about Cencaver. Everyone has a style of play an not everyone likes everyone but he has quite the reputation for dishonest dealing. There used to be a player named Michelancello that did the same exact thing...then right around the time Michelancello stopped playing Cengaver showed up. Coincidence? :shock:

His MO is to lowball you if you want to sell something and then he puts it on his vendor for usually above market prices. WhenI mean lowball I don't mean he offers 10-20% below market value. I mean he offers 50% if you're lucky and if you're a newer player you may not know so you fall for his trap. It's not against Codex not am I advocating that it should be, but a little integrity goes a long way and Cengaver just hides behind his language barrier anytime you bring up an uncomfortable topic in game.
Last edited by Muolke on Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
mineiro
Adept Scribe
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by mineiro »

Perfectly what I thought. If he knows the players is new and still does that I would consider a scam.
User avatar
Cengaver
Master Scribe
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:23 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

mineiro wrote:You didn't post all messages, hmm funny thing...
For the others I am sorry I got off the post, I got carried away and will not continue with this.
you perpetiously asked me about gears and trades, again, again... i understand you are the puppet and you trying to find my lowest point, but you cant find cos actually i dont have :D and i am stoped talking to you...

i am not liar or greedy but "i am offer price" for "how much i will buy price", seller accepts or refuse, thats all, i am not forcing (i cant forcing too) but i said this too you before, look photos...

are you not shame? after i am showed our talking? true talking to ewerybody? and i am changed talk about, and stooped to chat with you, i dont want show your meanles talks to ewerybody...

note for: master of puupets :verymad: :verymad: :verymad:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Muolke wrote:I mean he offers 50% if you're lucky
:lool: actually i am learn this techniq from you, i am asked some item price for your offer, and i see, you always offer half price from normal market prices for buyings, but i see now, if another playing doing this, you begin to blackened campaing, and said "try to scam..." pfft look yoursef
Muolke wrote:I think if you cut your price in 1/2 you MAY get some interest.
arggh, i am not wish actually, but i must say, tywm for your lessons
User avatar
Cengaver
Master Scribe
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:23 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

if any other my old girlfriend waiting for kick me ???

this is perfect time...
:lool:

lie, blame and blacklist campign already started and groving agains me... Dont Miss, Have you kicked it already? (^_^)
User avatar
Cengaver
Master Scribe
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:23 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

[[Redacted]]

First off Skahaem, you never offered me 485 ED, All you kept telling me was about the 500 ED, 500.. 500... , i am told you, i am tryed to explain but sometimes i cant find true words, you are experienced player, idk how many year, and buyed time you have vendor in TC, i am telling you %3 vendor cut again again... and you well understand what i am saying about but you dont want understand... you dont accept this your fault, and this continues... why i must compansate your fault? and i am angryed and i dont want bribe to you for your fault...

Yes your friend told me "its only worthless statue", i think he is good man, but i am sold other items triple price what he said to me, and "demand and supply" again, in 2015 this statue wortless maybe but now ?? i will explain again for ewery reader, why i am put this statue for 500ed? i am used vendor.uoex.net and i am find another seller with 125mil!!!, i think its not realistic price, i am asked other my friend, one my friend told me "20mil price but he wish buy 200ed" yes he offered me 200ed for this statue, your friend said me wortless but my friend said me 200ed, (this talks remain in game my saved message Colibri can look for corrections) i think 500ed saleable top price, and i am sold...

before putted on my vendor, i know this is statue only deco, well i think ewerybody know this is deco, because your friend told me "this is wery common item", and this is deco price, and i knowed rideable mounth is 5000ED, i am not try or think any other thing before putted on vendor, welll why you not asked your friend before buying? you asked me but why you buyed after 11min? why not wait my reply? why you buyed directly? you well know rideable diablo mounth 5000 10000ed, and only 2 3 player have this mounth, are you think i am rob other players diablos or are you think i am wrong priced???? otherwise how i can got rideable diablo? can you tell us why buyed directly why no wait?? if are you dont know, ask or dont buy, i am selling closed box or dreams ??

why i am putting now diablo 200ed, because papa have this statue and he told me 150ed :D auron 200ed, lion 60mil, aster have this statue but i am not asked price :D i am buyed this statue 1.25mil from aerit (aerit known i am sold 500ed), if i see another player with low price, i am droping price time by time...

why i am added decription, because of you, you and your types players, i am not imagine this before happen this, anytime anybody dream anything and maybe tell after buyed "i am buyed because, i played diablo 2, i think (or i dream) this is fighter diablooo!!... " i am learning something and i am not repeating

after all you never think friend to me, this is totally lie, bacause if you are my real friend, you must warn me about price, actually i remember now (while writing this post) one of my friend warn me about price, he said me "if this is mounth, its prices 250mil!! i warn you" maybe i am gifting diablo statue to him after this post.

i am not pointing anyone, but you gived a reason ewerydisliked player to me, now if somebody have a problem with me, using this reason, and assaulting, i am only answers they lies..

listen, after answer all your question i will confess something, i am asked about this trade to my friend, he said me authority can solve this problem, i dont want reverse trade with 500ed, i think +A or +C comes to me, i am explain what happen, i am gived price what i gain, but this is not happen, in and after 1 month i heard many times your talks from other players, after 2 month +C comed and asked me about this trade, we talked, we discussed, and he asked me "maybe you think lower price for reversing" and leave last choice for reverse to me, normally i am waiting this but i am choice not reverse trade, because after 2 month you and your friend talked about me badly eweryone and otherone talked otherone, this is spread like virus, i am lost my all reselling oppornity!, i am lost some of my reputation!, i am lost my seller prestige! this is not fair reverse trade now! and after 3 month we are here, and i am working gossiper ewryday, i am not enjoying, i am wery bored, look i am working over 2 3 hours for creating this answers, sometrash maybe say again "cangaver using langue barrier again.." i am 6 month ago and ewerybody can imagine, a people with 6 month how talking englis..

after 3 month (i am sold on 15-08-19), actually i am something feel badly for you, what you dream, what you found, what we lost, i am sorry for me and you, but you continue.. but its to late, i dont want any other discussion/reply about that with any people...
User avatar
Cengaver
Master Scribe
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 3:23 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Cengaver »

User avatar
Charon
Elder Scribe
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:57 pm

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Charon »

*Grabs trusty chair n popcorn, and tunes into the drama channel*
Tis is gonna to be a good episode.

*munches*
Aerith
Master Scribe
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:39 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Aerith »

Nothing to do with me for once :geek: :geek: :geek:
User avatar
+Colibri
Administrator
Posts: 3958
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:08 pm
Location: static void Main

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by +Colibri »

I've just went through all the replies, looks like most people's opinion is that things should remain "buyer beware", even with some who have experienced this issue (either as a buyer, or seller's remorse, or seller's input error), that deals are final. But even discussing this issue is part of the solution, or maybe the whole solution, so that we can say our opinion and hear what others have to say (thanks for mentioning that, slartibartfast).


Regarding some of the issues mentioned:
  • I'd say Excelsior is already very babyproof, so in a way further babyproofing shouldn't be a priority.
  • The "technical solution" is simple to code, and I'll do it as a priority. Already a good amount of time spent on this, another hour of coding isn't a problem so that I can put this to rest, so that there's some result/solution to the issue that was raised.
  • @qbf: you mentioned in your first reply, "don't buy from Michelancello". This is blacklisting, and not allowed. As you pointed out, it would be good to be able to call out the potentially suspicious sellers, and if you stick to facts and not go against the person/name, that is (and should be) allowed. Maybe this should be an overall rule, for discussing anything in chat, or on the forum. For example, this is allowed: "i had this same item on my vendor for weeks and it didn't sell, finally got it to sell for 800k, so I'd say it's not worth 10mil". But this isn't: "Don't buy from ProverbialSaruman, he always scams people".
  • I've thought about a jury/trial system, and that would probably rock (maybe not for this particular issue, but overall, since we're a community, and certain things get decided by a jury of peers). It's a good deal of work, to code, then set up all the rules and get the show on the road (and certain things would definitely backfire, which would need lots more attention to get it working right), so i'd leave it as an idea. And perhaps, the fee that is paid by whoever invoked the dispute, and rewarded to the jurors.
  • @slartibartfast: in my country (Slovenia, Europe) we actually have a law that requires any purchase done thru catalog or online (seller is a business), to be returned & refunded within 14 days. I think such laws in favor of buyers/consumers are quite rare. It goes even further - basically, you have 14 days to notify the seller in writing that you will be returning the item. Then, you have 2 more months before you have to actually physically return it. I don't know if it's legal for a business to put you on a blacklist, for those who would return lots of items... but even if that's the case, there's so many web shops that you can buy the same item from. So, it's possible to "rent" a whole lot of new electronics, enjoy the peeling of the screen protectors, and get all money back. Though, that would be frowned upon, and we're a small country, so it's a good chance that whoever runs that webshop is like, your uncle's coworker's neighbor. Well in your case of camping equipment, at least they returned usable items, not intentionally broken stuff (i hope).
  • I've thought about the ability to return the item to the vendor as well, but it's a lot of coding. For one, the money would have to remain locked on the vendor until the grace period expires. Then, there are things that are not immutable, like weapons - which, if you buy a No Points Spent weapon, apply some points, it's not worth that much anymore. Unless, if it were possible to undo the spent points, but yeah then there's also bod books, etc.
  • Some players or vendors might appear shady, but I think we'll have a problem defining the "appearance of shadiness" - that's the kind of rules we need to avoid. It's also why I haven't hired new staff recently, people who are policing this have to be on the same page (about the basic concepts, as well as what new things happen with time). Every now and then someone suggests "just get a few people to monitor chat" but I expect that will bring chaos, which is again something I have to deal with. It's a simple solution, but there's a few things that have to be laid out before. Is it possible to define shady, in a way that is understandable to everyone and can be used as a measure, but also isn't as long as the US Tax Code?
  • I'm thinking... somesort of reputation/score might solve these ambigous problems. In small communities, some things are frowned upon, and whoever wants to stay in and feel accepted, will react even to just a raised eyebrow. But as a community grows, it's hard to tell whether you'll be scammed by this unknown seller. I think ebay wouldn't function at all without their seller reputation system. I sometimes buy on eBay, but never sold anything yet; recently a friend who isn't good with internet, asked me if i could sell an item for them. The item is worth about 500$, and as i filled out the form, i couldn't even get it listed, because my reputation as a seller isn't suffient enough to sell such items. .... .... Hmm, this same system might be a solution to this problem. Can't sell highly valued items if you haven't already sold a number of things and gotten good feedback from buyers.
I've been thinking and here's what I'll do:
  • Upgrade of the buying confirmation dialog (when buying items from player-owned vendors
    - basic computer-generated type of the item (melee weapon/ranged weapon/resource/deco/pet/...). The list won't be complete, but it can be improved in the future.
    - for purchases of expensive items (more than 1 mil gold, or alternative-currency-alternative) an extra confirmation dialog "are you sure" and with a quick note about all sales being final, contact seller if you ahve any doubts or questions about the item.
    - big red warning for items that are not usable by the buyer (unusable powerscrolls, vet rewards but account isnt old enough, temporary items,... if you can think of any other such potential problematic items, please let me know).
  • - rule: it's only against the rules if the description is misleading, or if the seller makes false claims (either in description or in chat).
  • improvement for sellers: additional confirmation when entering the price, or somehow visually displayed, to prevent accidental listing for 100gp instead of 100ed.
  • - and it might also be good to write it as a rule, that commenting on other player's prices or wares is allowed, as long as it's polite and constructive.

About the mini diablo: if I return the 15ED fee, and Shakaem returns the statuette, and Cengaver returns the 485 ED, do we have a deal?
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard

Don't know what the purpose of your life is? Well then make something up! ;)
(Old Colibrian proverb)
mineiro
Adept Scribe
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by mineiro »

Thank you for the input +C. I think you have said it all and sorry again for getting off topic, it is just that the community has always been so united but I understand that as it grows it is very hard to control everything. This "karma" values can be a bit tricky in my opinion, I think it is worth considering but we might have to be very careful with the outcomes.

One of the things you mentioned I was thinking as well. When you put an item with ED value there could be a message or something that warns the sellers that the price is in ED's to avoid mistakes with gold prices.

About the staff, you are absolutely right, hiring new people that aren't in the same page will only result in more issues and more time consuming with things that shouldn't happen.
culichi
Legendary Scribe
Posts: 577
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:04 pm

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by culichi »

@colibri if you decide to add a confirmation button on price for listed items would it be possible to allow us to opt out of it? would be very annoying when adding a lot of items to have to confirm each items price.

i do realize "appearance of shadiness" is vague and wide open to interpretation but i did also say that my idea for a solution was only kinda/sorta fair lol. i really think that having a town center vendor is great help and its not crazy to demand a little more responsibility from players lucky enough to snag a vendor spot. btw my complaints on tc vendor practices are only related to stuff like mini diablo and polar bear mask being used in misleading ways. there was some talk about resellers paying too low and reselling too high but trying to regulate something like that is crazy and most of us would be against it anyways.
mineiro
Adept Scribe
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by mineiro »

culichi wrote:@colibri if you decide to add a confirmation button on price for listed items would it be possible to allow us to opt out of it? would be very annoying when adding a lot of items to have to confirm each items price.
You are aboslutely right!
User avatar
Slartibartfast
Master Scribe
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Slartibartfast »

That sounds like a good solution, +C. I'm glad there's not a lot of coding involved for you. Also...
+Colibri wrote:...we're a small country, so it's a good chance that whoever runs that webshop is like, your uncle's coworker's neighbor.
:lool: That's really great, actually! Anonymity is what causes a lot of people to do/say things online that they would never say or do face-to-face. That's also the reason I don't think it would not get as bad here as it did in my example. Most people here are no more separated from one another than the UO equivalent of "your uncle's coworker's neighbor."
mineiro wrote:
culichi wrote:@colibri if you decide to add a confirmation button on price for listed items would it be possible to allow us to opt out of it? would be very annoying when adding a lot of items to have to confirm each items price.
You are aboslutely right!
:nod:
Last edited by Slartibartfast on Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In Game: Billy Blacksmith

EasyUO:
Journal Spy | Heal n' Feed

ALT + 42
Mansonjr
Novice Scribe
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:23 am

Re: Codex change: caveat venditor (discussion)

Post by Mansonjr »

letting the drama out, Ty +C for this kind of decision.

Still don't understand why the people insist on put the effort on the "Buyer" i will say it again and again, When you go to store you hope to be well received and even if you don't know anything, laws, and all the society protect the "consumers" or "Buyers".

If you, vendor, Seller, or anything like that, don't wanna to lose time putting information or attending request that not make sense or don't wanna be bothered with the sellers things, its simple "Don't run a business".

And i'm not going to discuss the thing about "Don't babycare the people" While suggesting to ask to the whole chat, making people "Babycaring" in real time because the vendor doesn't wanna to clarify the things. I'm not going to lose any minute doing the work of the seller to explain their clients how the items should work.

I'm not intended to offense anyone but, if you think selling it's only putting items and wait for profit while you wanna other ppl care your clients, you should look yourself.

This is my last post about this matter because i don't wanna anyone to get offended or have any discussion about it, but that's totally illogical.
Post Reply