End game content

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+Nyx
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Re: End game content

Post by +Nyx »

I guess I'll try to address some of this, for clarity and as a general update. Incoming Huuuuuge Wall Of Text :P

Facets coding - The coding for the facets is not even close to done. The 3 month coding binge that happened back in the fall ended without being finished - there are a number of bugs that didn't get fixed and things that didn't get coded. I was waiting on various things at the end of that coding period, and then I got sick. To my knowledge no other coding has been done for Elysium in that time other than to fix bugs that were affecting the live shard from things previously added for Elysium. Even if the rest of the things from that coding period were fixed up, there was still a lot of coding that would have had to get done before the facet could open, and it was planned that we would do another coding period sometime in 2018. The 3-month-coding-binge ended up taking a lot more time to do each thing and iron out the bugs properly than the coders originally expected, so we did not finish a lot of what we had hoped to finish in that time, meaning more time would need to be spent on it later on.

Health wise - In the past 6-ish months, I have been extremely ill. As some of you may remember, I've been quite sick off and on for 2.5 years now. I've been to every type of doctor and specialist we could think of, had dozens upon dozens of tests done, and only now are we finally starting to get close to a diagnosis. Unfortunately, with the current working theory, there isn't any treatment. It isn't terminal, nor do we think at this juncture that it is degenerative which is FANTASTIC, but it is also something that they simply can't treat. This means that lifestyle changes and symptom management at home are the only options for any hope of improvement for me. Which also means that a lot of my time is going to be spent working on getting my health into some semblance of balance and visiting various physical therapists and specialists, potentially forever. It's been difficult to squeeze in shard time because of all of this, and I don't know when that will become feasible again. On top of that, as Melkor mentioned, +V and I just got married barely a month ago. Things around House Awesome were utterly insane in terms of RL due to wedding planning and having family visiting. Things are settling down on that front, finally, but now we're coming up on other RL stuff post-wedding.


Octavius, please take this in the friendly spirit in which it is meant, because you're one of those fun players I genuinely like to talk to - I am not angry at you or "yelling" at you in any of this, I just want to give some perspective here. Compared to the most successful beta testers, you didn't put that many hours into the beta (which is totally okay, but it leads me to the next point). You put in a fair bit of time, so that means that the folks who were most successful in the beta put in dozens more hours than *that*. Read: a metric crap-ton of hours. Most of the people who signed up for the beta dropped out almost immediately, or their activity quickly declined in the first 3 weeks until they had to be removed for failing to participate. Others tapered off about halfway through. By the end, I had only about 4 (out of the original 20+) beta testers who were still active. People get excited about the idea of being a beta tester, because they think it'll be big fun, or they want the inside info and status they think it brings. Then they get into the beta and realize it's actual work, it's usually not even all that fun, and they lose interest. I can't blame them, that crap is boring. I don't enjoy doing those betas any more than those folks did. :lol: But then sometimes those same folks somehow expect me to create this entire mini world from scratch on their timeline, not stopping to think that those few hours they contributed to a beta that they then got bored of and couldn't stick with for the 3 months is only the smallest fraction of the hours it takes to create one single quest at my standard of quality and creativity, let alone the entire facet. And that it's just as tedious, uninteresting, and dull for me throughout 90% of the development process.

I wasn't sure what you meant by the "all or nothing" approach to the facets. I am guessing that you meant that Elysium is planned to open all at once, so until it is all done, there's no opening. Assuming that's the case, I wanna touch briefly on that - Touria, which is meant for endgame, is designed to open in pieces. V designed Touria to work a bit like you'd see in a bigger MMO, in phases. So area 1 is the beginning of the invasion, and as players work toward completing area 1, he works on area 2, and then players move into the next phase of the invasion. It's a cool idea, and it will work beautifully for V's storyline. For my own, Elysium was designed to be an open-world. Once you guys "discover" Elysium, and earn entry, then it is all there for you to explore. My entire outline for the facet is based on this, and I have long resisted opening it in pieces because that would mean rewriting a ton of the main story. Now that I have been sick for so long, and coding is still so incomplete (even after 3 months of literally non stop coding!), I have begun to rethink some of that aspect of the facet. I still intend to open the whole map at once, however I have begun to think on the possibility of having some of the factions not be present at the beginning. I might rewrite it so that a handful of the faction cities are empty upon facet opening, and then they come and discover the land themselves later on, and set up shop. I can't definitively say that I will do this, but I am considering it in order to get the facet open a little faster if/when I am able to work on it again and if/when the coding is finished.

The remark earlier in the thread that there are these existing areas (Sgail/wrong/etc) that could be tweaked for end game, I get what you're saying, and you're right that they could. But please take into account that doing those tweaks takes a *lot* of time, it isn't fun, and it isn't necessarily easy at all. We are all volunteer staff. I am ONLY still here on this shard because I love the awesome players here, I love making content, and I love UO. Many a time I have wanted to quit when things went full retard around here, but I stayed because at the time it was worth it. Someday it won't be worth it, but as I approach my 7 year staffing anniversary I find that I hope it continues to be worth it for a long time, because like I said- this is a volunteer gig. It is just a hobby. A hobby I love, but a hobby nonetheless. It can't be my #1 life priority, particularly with so much going on. The same goes for most of the staff, we can't prioritize the shard above RL stuff, even if we wanted to. That means that development stuff gets done based on our own free time, motivation, and interest. When a staffer has only a finite, relatively small number of hours to spend on the shard in a given week, then it's usually pretty hard to want to work on something that isn't interesting or fun. Just as y'all players like new, fresh, fun things - so do we. We usually wanna be working on new stuff, rather than fiddling with the older stuff that we consider finished according to our original plan. That's a big part of why things like sgail aren't likely to get an overhaul. There's always new stuff to be done, onward and upward.

As much as I want to make all of you guys happy and bust my butt to get Elysium ready right away, I just can't do that. It isn't entirely up to me, since I still need a lot coded, but I also have to deal with my regular life first. I *HATE* that it has taken this long, that for so many years no coding was done and so we could not proceed with development. I really, really hate it. It bothers me on a personal level not to keep up with timetables, but in this case it was out of my control for a very long time and to an extent still is. Right now it's on hold mainly because of me, yes, but believe me when I tell you I understand your frustration, because for all the years before this point, I was in the same boat with you players, being frustrated at waiting for things.

I know it seems like there's nothing new and exciting going on for you guys on the new-content topic, the vets especially, and I sympathize. It's difficult since V and I are usually the only ones actively making new events/quests/areas, so when we have to go away from you guys for awhile, then y'all have this noticeable gap of nothing-doing on that front. I know that the other staff are all actively working on new stuff lately, but I don't know what specifically, so I can't say whether you guys can be looking forward to events/quests/areas from them. Hopefully so! For myself I will say that I am hoping to get a handle on that whole health-management thing in the next few months, and provided nothing goes full retard on the shard in the interim, then I plan to be back and actively working on things for you guys. I wish that my health concerns weren't affecting y'all so much, it's even more depressing for me to know that y'all are depending on me for your funtimes and I'm not able to satisfy that because of all this health crap. I am doing everything I can, I promise :)


Also - Thanks for the well wishes, Melkor :)
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Re: End game content

Post by Yoda »

Nyx said so much beautifully and on many levels I am moved. Best wishes and such, nyx.. I have a reply but its not for a public forum I can relate to your situation on levels you cannot imagine, it gets better, thats the short summary.

best wishes on your marriage, if you refer to your house as "House awesome" it bodes well I believe our name was "fort awesome" 10 years ago when Pheobe and I tied the knot Aug22nd we should throw a shard party.
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Melkor
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Re: End game content

Post by Melkor »

Sorry I was wrong with my info, I was going off something +Colibri said in world chat

9.1. 14:46 Nikki-: Any timeframe for it opening +C?
9.1. 14:46 Ezykial: busy typing instead of playing.. I am pretty sure you cant fix stupid
9.1. 14:48 +Colibri: nikki, i should update the forum thread about it. we got most of the coding donw,
9.1. 14:48 Umei: any stat potion seller vendor around?
9.1. 14:48 Nikki-: Oh very nice :D
9.1. 14:48 +Colibri: done*, now it has to all be placed & tested in the actual game. Since this is Nyx's department
9.1. 14:49 +Colibri: mostly, and she cant devote much time to UO, there wont be much development until april

I am probably over reflecting, but I didn't in any way mean to imply that any of the delays were because of +Nyx (or anyone), I hope it didn't come off that way.
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Re: End game content

Post by +Nyx »

No, not at all, no worries :)
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Re: End game content

Post by Yoda »

You guys remind me of the squirrels from lumberjerks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSTBqim2Vg4 =) its so nice
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+Requiem
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Re: End game content

Post by +Requiem »

I think one of the first and foremost things to realize about Ultima, is it was never designed to really have an 'end' game like a modern day MMO. End-Game was your 700 point build, and whatever you could accomplish with it alone, or with some friends.

I think one of the issues we have here on Excelsior is the relayer system. It makes you into a god-like, nearly unkillable player, so things that used to be challenging, you don't even break a sweat to do. The problem comes in when you go back to look at overall game balance.

Relayers broke balance when they were introduced. Insta-Healing broke balance when people got it. Super powerful weapons broke balance, especially since they became customizable with the level system. Breedable and levelable pets broke balance, by being able to power through nearly any content except insta-kill things, which really aren't that much fun.

So one of the hardest questions we have to consider, is how do we re-balance the game, around an unbalanced system and unbalanced god-like players? If we were to add a new tier of equipment for example, you would just be even more powerful, and that wouldn't really solve anything. I don't think we need better gear. Different gear, more options, sure but we don't need a new tier of super gear.

If we remove what has now become core gameplay mechanics (insta-heal, etc), I don't think the server population would handle it well, and many players would quit (speculation on my part). I don't think anyone wants that.

I (personally) think we need to take a look at slowing down progression, and letting players get "double digit" relayers over a much longer time period. I think slowing it down would help tremendously, but that does add a grindy mechanic into the mix. I also feel weapon levelling is too too fast.

As you can see, there's not an easy solution.

I mean, we could add content that you couldn't use relayers on, or insta heal, to bring back some challenge, but I'm not sure people want that either. They worked hard for what they have. 1 shot kills isn't much fun either. so, how do you balance something around a god-like player, without removing the things they've worked so hard for?

As far as Spectre Dungeon goes, the Queen is quite powerful, but uses a bad mechanic to get to that point. Because you have insta-heal, even her extra damage just means you need to run around and avoid being hit while you kill her. This isn't a great solution, but it does work for now. If you have ideas to make things harder, without nerfing relayers, insta-heal, adding 1-shot death mechanics, or forcing people to use a bow so they don't get hit, please let me know. I'm open ears.
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Re: End game content

Post by Melkor »

Maybe there isn't a way to challenge players in the conventional way. Personally I'd be happy to have new lands to explore, new quests to do. I heard talk ages ago about faction vendors working similar to WOW. Something like do a quest series and gain rep with a faction, more rep means you can buy better things from the faction vendor. Even after initial quest series is done you wouldn't have the max rep so there could be daily quest to better gain your rep. The top for one faction item could be a killer account bound mount, another could be an account bound titan's hammer like item, a nice bow, a nice WW weapon etr (one time buy only). This could eat up hundreds of hours for players.

I think you guys are on the right track with the stuff in the works, cooking, wine making and Plant Bods. All the new clothes and armor graphics coming, you guys just gotta get there. Just new stuff to see and do and explore would be awesome.

For existing stuff, Slowing progression down sounds like a good idea.
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Re: End game content

Post by Cygnus »

I've reached end game status twice in my past UO lives. First time I was able to become staff until work forced me away from the game for good. The 2nd time, I didn't want the headaches of being staff (hats off to current staff) so I reluctantly just gave it up. So, this time around I vowed to delay getting to that point for as long as possible. I started here avoiding relayers for 3 years, but eventually still got to a point to where either I relayered to continue on or quit. I like the player base and staff here, so I gave in, but under the condition that I didn't go the route that everyone else was doing. I needed to be more powerful, but I tried to stay away from god-like status, which I think I accomplished. I can fight anywhere now, but still have a good chance to die if I lag a tiny bit or make foolish moves. Before I relayered, I had players asked me why I didn't. My answers perplexed them. When I started to relayer and players asked me why you relayering that weapon, they thought my answer was foolish. All I can say, is I am still playing and enjoying my time here and they are not.
So, basically what I am saying is if you are not end game yet, don't shoot for the max or you will only hasten your final days here. As many of you know, I have been here longer than anyone, so there must be some merit to my madness.

To Staff: Personally, one of the things I would like to see are things that would challenge our brains more than our brawn. A balance of both would be ideal. Things that have to be overcome that doesn't necessarily require a bow or war hammer.

To End-Game players: No matter what the staff would come up with, eventually you will grow bored with it, unless they would create a whole new facet with numerous end-game challenges and still eventually, that too would grown old. I empathize where you are at, because I have been there. Once you hit max, I am afraid you box yourself into a corner where your options are now limited.
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Re: End game content

Post by +Nyx »

Cygnus wrote:To Staff: Personally, one of the things I would like to see are things that would challenge our brains more than our brawn. A balance of both would be ideal. Things that have to be overcome that doesn't necessarily require a bow or war hammer.
That’s basically the plan for both facets, particularly Touria. V has done some really amazing things with mob mechanics using xml voodoo. For example, one boss fight the boss occasionally duplicates itself multiple times, so there’s a half dozen of them running around, and you have to find and damage the correct one in order to proceed. Others, you have to dispel certain items the boss has summoned in order to be able to damage him. There’s a lot of stuff like this that he come up with and I think it’s really exciting since, like you said, it’s not always about brawn. I think a lot of the boredom ubergeared players face is from lack of mental engagement when playing. They get that overpowered and then everything is just playing on rails, basically. Things that require attention and thought can be just as challenging as something that can one shot a vet.
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Re: End game content

Post by [Glyph] »

I have a few ideas for slowing down progression and quest lines.

Progression: We have a wonderful Achievement system in place that is intended to be Decorative only. (+C said this). If we could tie different rewards to this system it would open up a new avenue of progression and play. Relayer slots could be earned by completing various Achievements (visiting all shrines, Completing a champ spawn, Raising all crafting skills to 120, etc), and would cost 4 vet points and be available to purchase. I am thinking one slot available every 3 or 4 months ( No more buying up to endgame in 2 weeks). The slot could even be a randomly generated slot (don't go shirt, kilt, jewelry each time, random pick). Some of the achievements actually do take time to accomplish and the system could be structured so that if you use a skillball to bypass the time requirement, the slot becomes unavailable for 12 months, or gets thrown back into the relayer randomizerinator (can you hear Heinz Doofenschmirts?). If not tied to the Achievement system, then throw them in as vet rewards like the footprints and mounts.

Quest line: Once all combat skills have been raised to 120 (including tactics, ninjitsu, bushido) you visit a shrine and learn a new skill, Unarmed Combat (NOT Wrestling). This skill would inflict more damage than wrestling, think Shaolin Monks or Saturday afternoon Kung Fu movies. There was an old text based game called Gemstone 3, and they had Voln Fu, this is what I am basing this on. There could be a version of some monsters that are immune to weapon damage and they are wandering around in the lower level of some dungeons, heavily populated mob areas, champ spawns or they could randomly pop up in town. You might need to disarm yourself in the middle of a champ spawn and kill those critters before you can continue with the champ.

Titans Hammer quest: Account bound TH. Level 10 warhammers to combine into a titans hammer (think Gleam Aura leggings quest). This would require a heavy investment of resources and time to level the 10 hammers. Each hammer would only gain experience from one group of monsters (undead, fey, repond, elemental, etc). Repeatable every 4 to 6 months from when you finish the quest. Oh, and only YOU can level the weapons. You cant pay someone else to do this. This can utilize some of the Fel towns that are not always visited.

Just a few ideas. No idea how long any of this would take to implement or if some of it is even possible. It might however spark some interest or other ideas that are.
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Re: End game content

Post by Cygnus »

+Nyx wrote:Others, you have to dispel certain items the boss has summoned in order to be able to damage him.
Oooh. Not to get too much off topic, but does that mean 'hit dispel' might actually have a use on a weapon? That would be certainly worth the wait. :goodsuprise:
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Re: End game content

Post by +Colibri »

Yeah, there could always be more stuff for highest-end players, since that gives more reason for low-mid players to look something to. And over the years we've added these things. For example, nobles used to be "the thing", now they're almost newbie-trash, depending on the definition of "newbie"... i guess we could call this a sort of "inflation" that happens. So, to add an extra step - the rewards for killing such mobs would have to reflect the difficulty, but then it also needs yet another step where you can actually use that even-more-powerful gear. In a way it's a never-ending cycle, and i hear on WOW they now have millions of HP - if we went at upgrades at the same pace we'd probably be in the same magnitude of numbers as well (i also just remembered of Clicker games).

I guess like a few have mentioned this wisdom in this thread: it's about the journey, not the destination.

Buffing existing areas to make them more challenging - i think it would then become too challenging/impossible for the level of players it was designed for, and those players are also more numerous than those with a dozen relayers, so I wouldn't touch those areas.

Elysium progress over the years has been "steady", but sporadic - for example, a few intense weeks, followed by months of pause, and then another little bit of fixing or creating... That's why we decided to sit down and focus on it for a longer period, which was from end of August till early December last year, to get as much of it done, and things that won't make it, might be added at a future time, after it opens. Now +Nyx already mentioned opening in parts - I think that would be the best way, one or two factions, then after some time and when it's all debugged and polished, another. Adds some overhead, but that way we can already use feedback from the early factions and use it while placing/opening others.

Overall, I think there is much room for challenging content if we remove 220 dex insta-heal, :twisted: balance out the imps, and some other pets. But those "features" are what makes Excelsior fun, in a way, and maybe removing them wouldn't fare well. But yeah, right now anything that's supposed to be challenging has to insta-kill you. There is however room for mobs with cool mechanics, where you have to think a bit, connect the dots and use actual gaming skill to figure it out and defeat it(not clicking an icon or pressing Play on a macro).
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Re: End game content

Post by Versales »

Personally, I don't get all the hullabaloo about end game vs not end game. When I reached end game status (everything relayered excluding a totem slot) I got very bored. I could go anywhere and do anything and all I did was sit around in Trisc/TC. After several long months of doing this, log in, sit, log off, repeat. I simply decided "end game" was very "end playing" (for me). So I decided to do something about it!

Step one: Sell all of my relayers for ED/gold
Step two: Spend all those ED's (I think I ended up with ~10k eds) on various things I bought some grand auction stuff to give away, bought house slots, bought a wide variety of things needed to run a guild craft house.
Step three: Avoided spending any of those Eds on weapons/armor/etc etc.
Step four: Set myself a time limit (6 months) before I could/would use anything "high end" outside of GoC legs/sleeves
Step five: The game became A LOT more difficult! I didn't even have close to 220 dex again or massive HP, so I died, and died, and died oh yeah, then I died again!
Step six: the game was fun again!
Step seven: began to rebuild

And when it gets too tedious again, I'll resell it all over again and start fresh.
I also started a "hardcore" alt that took up a lot of my time when I was bored. You can find out more about that by looking up other threads.

Boredom, and by extension end game, is state of mind and staying in that state of mind is either an act of ignorance or belligerence. But I think that this differs from person to person. For me that is all I needed t do to get a second wind in the game, for others it may not work or they may feel they can't "give up" their relayers. But I'd still say explore making an alt. It is a refreshing change of pace, and you don't have to give up everything you own. You can set up rules to make it as difficult as you wish (I think there is even a possible guild that has started with the aim of RP/ making life simple again.


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Keep in mind, the views expressed herein are based on personal opinion and any other opinions will be taken, considered, and treated with respect and dignity.
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Re: End game content

Post by Octavius Thorn »

Took some time to really take in all that has been said, a lot of very thoughtful and positive takeaways from the breakdowns given by a lot of players and staff i respect a great deal and no GT i don't have much gold lol its all in the wand AND I buyz all decoz i canz lol.

To Nyxey I don't think you needed to bring up my beta performance publicly as I wasn't attacking the beta experience or Elyisum itself as I loved all that i tested and thought this is gonna be fantastic once it is released and Yes your "All or nothing" reply was correct I feel it should be in stages which i am learning is now what the plan is.. I will say how many nights did we sit on top of moonglow bank and u showed all kinds of tailoring and others stuff ect for Elysium. Can you not understand my pain when the tailoring update came and went and not ONE of those 50 items made it to the update?


UO is still here after all these years because you can keep progressing you can keep adding, the world continues to be more complex, more customization then before. It has to keep moving that way.. You do not need massive updates to effect endgame, little tweaks here and there.. the pot at the end of the rainbow has to be there for everyone. you gotta keep pushing the line..

End Game is NOT static, it has to keep moving forward. That is why this game survives.. Going backwards is not the answer..
Why I do need to now punish myself by making myself weaker then what I worked hard to get to? I got up extra early for work countless times to hit doom chests and same countless times rushed home from work to hit doom once more.. How many earth eles did i kill aimlessly trying to build up my gem collection? I was fortunate enough to snag 3 titans hammers in that process.. and some think its best to toss all that hardwork out so killing balrons is harder???? absurd.. There was a time in this game when balrons and Ancient Wyrms were end game... It Progressed to Doom, to Peerless ect ect UO players live for the "update" they live for the new eye candy..

We have to keep moving forward..

If you cannot understand that concept.. That's ok... UO is still for you too. its for every play style :)
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Re: End game content

Post by Yoda »

End Game is NOT static, it has to keep moving forward. That is why this game survives.. Going backwards is not the answer..
Why I do need to now punish myself by making myself weaker then what I worked hard to get to?
Oh here we go again this stuff...

you realize this game wasn't designed with relayers in mind, full regens to everything superman. this "Why do I need to punish" myself line is as old as the shard and it never gets anymore logical.

1. the full relayer suit posse is a minority
2. the game was never intended even slightly to have player characters this powerful
3. 2 again about a million ways through every proc etc etc etc that gear has made nullified overpowered or etc

expecting the game to suit you at this point is.... Ilogical

As for the tailoring update etc etc etc, alot of what you are saying sounds as if you want things NOW, so the first phase tailoring didn't have even ONE of the 50 (as you put it). As far as I understood this was a preliminary update, and many of those things were for Elysium? Regardless you are bound to be disappointed anyway, I very much doubt the sought after relayer target item you desire will be tailorable (random educated guess).

My main point and this is general to all vets, you have gear items etc, you have donated etc, and that entitles you to absolutely nothing, you don't get extra "clout" "whinging rights" etc by playing here a while or donating. All of this content is made by volunteers, with real life limitations like jobs etc, this is a hobby for ALL of us, when I start hearing players of a free game whinging like they are OWED stuff, it annoys me.

It is ok to be excited about new content, it isn't ok to act like someone's boss when you aren't

thats so waaack..

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