Anti-AFK system upgrade

Vote on the shard-related matters and/or give your arguments.
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Anti-AFK system to include everything?

Yes, make it include everything, with some exceptions
22
29%
No
55
71%
 
Total votes: 77

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Ilsanor
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Ilsanor »

Anarchy:
"not everyone can be a mechanic"
That's where you're wrong. Anyone can be a mechanic if they put enough time into and learn. It's not rocket science, it's not a closed medieval-style guild, it's not a secret society. It's just a few weeks (or months), good books and a set of tools. How do you think people become mechanics in the first place? They're born into it?
Same goes for levelling - people just do other things, that they like more or have more aptitude for. It pays for their levelling. Imagine you had to produce everything you need for yourself in real life - food, water, electricity, clothes, appliances etc. Would it be feasible, time-wise? Sure, but not at a modern technology level. Instead you go to whatever work you do, get paid for doing it, spend the money on what you want and/or need. It's how any group of individuals operates - no one can efficiently do everything for themselves, so people divide up the things to do and everyone (ideally) does his part.
And lastly, I'll say it again. You're promoting a nice view on other people - everyone's a cheater. Trust no one.
If you need a nice parallel to this discussion you can look at USA's Patriot Act, with subsequent amendments.

And a little (mis-)quote: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
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Johnny Warren
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Johnny Warren »

[quote="Nelapsi] certain areas getting abused like red headed step children.[/quote]

Heh...

My 2c.
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Tacityl
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Tacityl »

"You're promoting a nice view on other people - everyone's a cheater. Trust no one."

^^ This

We can make a completely safe server. Every mouseclick checked. Every chatline logged. Every player consulted about every other player's actions. What you really have to ask yourself is: Would I want to play on that kind of shard? Even stepping back from that absurd proposition, another question is: Would I want to play on a shard that assumed, as a policy, that all my actions were violations of the codex until proven otherwise?

There's a lot of discussion about how to attract new players to UO, and by extension, this shard. I myself came here recently due to various Top Freeshard lists. Colibri has even advocated those of us who play here to vote on this shard. If this thread, or other threads like it, were posted on other sites, would people still vote for Excelsior? Would new people still come here?
Asmodean
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Asmodean »

The problem Tacityl, is that the few ruin it for the many.

On a perfect shard, nobody would cheat, nobody would lie, nobody would break the rules, and everyone would have much fun and there would be much rejoicing. Unfortunately, some people are *bleep* and refuse to play nice, or abide by the rules. So, to catch them, you have to implement certain measures and there is a fine line between too much, and too little, a very fine line indeed.

You don't want to punish those playing by the rules, but you do want to catch those who don't. Whether its more staff, or the inconvenience of an afk check, or something else, there is a problem otherwise no action would be required.

Now the trick becomes finding a solution that's a happy medium between being as little of an annoyance to regular players as possible, yet effective enough to curb, if not stop cheaters.

I really think the only thing that NEEDS to be done is strict, harsh, permanent, and enforced rules. I do agree with afk checking be added to certain things, and more frequently at that. Once an hour i think is minimally invasive, yet effective enough for those trying to get around the rules while they sleep etc.

As i've said, i think anything that is done, isn't going to be effective until the punishments are meaningful.
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Tacityl
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Tacityl »

There's 2 separate issues here:

(1) Increasing punishment for (bad) AFK activities. Great, do that. That's also not what the OP was about.
(2) From the poll: "... make it so that doing anything on the shard requires the player to be at the keyboard." Bad. Do not want.

I don't think (1) and (2) should be conflated. AFK checks are fine by me, I just don't want them to be added to common activities like killing monsters or looting corpses. That is the very definition of overkill.
Asmodean
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Asmodean »

My point was that, even if you got afk checked for every click, it means nothing because it can be scripted, if there is no meaningful punishment.

You are correct, the post is about adding an afk check to everything, and no, i do not feel that it should come to such a blanket effect of a solution.

Are you kidding me? You don't think gaining gold and experience from killing monsters (if not the actual looting) should be afk checked? So with your statement, it should be perfectly acceptable for someone like me to recall around, kill stuff, and loot their corpses while afk, or claim them more likely....???
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anarchy
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by anarchy »

not everyone can be a mechanic. do you know how much a diagnostic (a good one costs)? plus, the tools. my friend is a mechanic and he has over 100k worth of tools. not everyone can afford that. so no not everyone can be a mechanic. they can study it, and read it, and learn it, but it's much more than that to be a certain professional. that's the same as saying anyone can be a doctor or lawyer or rocket scientist if they put their minds to it and study. that's just like saying anyone can with time and effort be a great artist or musician, by train their vocal cords. big difference from something in a video game where all they have to do is level a weapon. some people can be a hybrid mechanic some just can't afford it. but in a video game everyone can kill a slime.

it's not the trust no one i have an issue with, because if you ask around you'll find some people that i have lent my entire gear out (amy, baby spendy). it's the punishment i have a problem with. i like nel's idea. weapon destroyed 1 st offense, and then ban second offense.
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Tacityl
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Tacityl »

Correct, I am not kidding. Have you really thought through adding AFK checks to killing monsters? Maybe you have, and you just don't mind it. If so, I can guarantee that you're in the vocal minority.

Seriously, look around the MMO landscape. Find me a (successful) MMO that AFK checks common, normal activities like killing monsters. Why do you think they don't exist? Do you think everyone else is just wrong?

Also, let's not resort to strawman arguments. No one is saying anything is "perfectly acceptable". There's no question that AFK killing monsters is bad. The kernel of the issue is how far to go in preventing it. I keep hearing all this talk of AFK activities being this horrible problem. Kittens dying. Think of the children. Whatever. I'm simply not convinced it's so large a problem that AFK checking something the vast majority of lawabiding players do constantly is warranted. If we're going to have some ludicrous system of AFK checks against activities like that, there should be cold, hard proof that this is a problem.
Asmodean
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Asmodean »

Yes, I have thought about it, and as much as i dislike it, i think its the right thing to do, since some people can't play by the rules. The people who do play by the rules suffer, but overall it leads to a better community and less cheating i believe. Its unfortunate that the few have to ruin it for the many.

Valid points were brought up on both sides of the argument, and maybe a system could even be added for individual afk checks at certain intervals if we get down to actually coding something new.

Flag a person, if they get a warning, afk checks are increased, every time they answer the afk check (by staff or automated), the next one comes slower. But you always have a minimum amount for some given time period. For example, afk checks will never fall below once every 100 kegs made, or 1000 mobs killed, or, 2 hours of doing *stuff*, or whatever, up to maybe one every half hour if you are caught several times doing things you shouldn't be doing.) Maybe not the best idea, but better than nothing.

You ask me to look around the MMO landscape. Why don't you do the same and name ONE that isn't also filled with cheaters, and bots, and people abusing exploits, and whatever else it takes to get ahead. Of those you can name (i'm going out on a limb and saying there are none), how do they handle cheating? Do people get a slap on the wrist, and have their stuff handed back to them after a week or two? No, when they are caught, they lose stuff, or get banned permanently. Which is what we need here. Maybe if they had AFK checks to prevent this stuff, they would be better games. Maybe not as successful (in money value) but better in quality.

You can argue against it, which is fine, but instead of just saying no, this sucks, don't do it, lets try to come up with a SOLUTION. Do you have any suggestions, or would you like to voice your opinions from behind the newbie card?

Given the choice, i would rather play on a cheat free shard, than a shard who had even 1% cheaters. Wouldn't you?
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Tacityl
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Tacityl »

"Do you have any suggestions, or would you like to voice your opinions from behind the newbie card?
...
Given the choice, i would rather play on a cheat free shard, than a shard who had even 1% cheaters. Wouldn't you?"

I would rather play on a shard where people didn't resort to juvenile namecalling.

There will always be cheaters, regardless of the systems in place. We have a solution in place for these sorts of things. Existing AFK checks are part of that, and I don't have a problem with the current AFK checks.

The real problem isn't so much AFK resource gathering as it is an unfair rate of return for effort (or lack thereof). Here's a suggestion: Employ the IRS audit model. Assume all player actions are valid in realtime. Audit a percentage of players, driven in part by which players are at the right of the bell curve for resources per unit time. Flagging players works in that model as well. We can even pass out newbie cards to players that get banned!
Asmodean
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Asmodean »

I'm not name calling, in your very first post you said:

"I'm new here, so maybe there's something I just don't get. Is AFK resource gathering really so much of a problem that we need to expend already sparse staff resources on combating it?"

And instead of offering suggestions on how to combat it, you're just saying its bad, and you don't want it. That's great, I don't want it either, but neither of our viewpoints solves anything.

"There will always be cheaters, regardless of the systems in place."

Yes, but less is always better than more. So anything that reduces cheating without being too restrictive (such as an afk check every time you swing a weapon, vs every X amount you kill), is good, in my opinion.

How does one audit a player in a game exactly? If you take 2 people, give them the exact same gear, and an hour to do something, one will have more of something than the other, and vice versa. Also, wouldn't auditing take a lot more of the sparse staff resources we have, than something that takes a few hours to script?
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Tacityl
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Tacityl »

It's pretty easy to audit things on any server that keeps logs. A running daemon can simply monitor logs and accumulate data, much the same way any of a hundred systems out there on the web do it. Heck, it's part of what I do for a living.

Once a day, week, month, whatever, a report can be spat out that tallies players and resources per time. The human intervention would simply be looking at that report, flagging players, and then spending online time monitoring them. That's a key concept: Shard staff could decide where to spend their limited online time, targeting players that are the most likely culprits. That seems about the same amount of effort as the current system, albeit with some upfront development effort.

One deficiency to this system is that you'd have to come up with initial upper bounds on resources/time. For example: What would a reasonable, at-the-keyboard player who has to pee, poop, eat, sleep, feed the baby, etc be able to collect in gold pieces/time unit? This limit would need to allow for hardcore resource gatherers who do so within the rules. Here's where I will play my newbie card. I don't know what a reasonable upper limit would be. But I suspect there's a lot of knowledge out there to leverage. Another option would be simply "grading on a curve": datamine to find the upper 1% or whatever of players, then focus on those.

This seems more palatable to me. The coding effort is equivalent to a harsh AFK check, but with a better end result. If I kill one or two monsters an hour, there's no issue regardless of how I kill them. Someone who kills a billion monsters in an hour would be flagged, and maybe just banned outright. In between would be the bulk of the live human effort.

Just to reiterate one design goal in this system: AFK resource gathering is just the tip of the poop pile. It's not actually what we care about stopping. The real problem is gathering resources *by any means* with a faster rate than is fair. That includes not only AFK issues but also hacks not specifically covered by the codex.
Asmodean
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Asmodean »

Thank you for that, that is a good suggestion.

The deficiency you name is an enormous one, and one that would be near impossible to combat. The reason i say that is because if you take a top tier player with all re-layers, who can kill, lets pretend 1000 monsters an hour. They do this 100% legally, and at the keyboard and compare them to a lesser geared player... Then, with this logging system, someone with less gear, who only manages 200 monsters an hour is below the radar so to speak, just because of a gear difference. So, how would we make this system take those things, and player skill, and availability of mobs (or resources) into account?

As you will find out, if you have not already, 220 dex makes such an enormous difference in killing speed, and efficiency, and each relayer past that just adds more damage, more hit points, more stamina, more everything, including more efficiency. Also, you have to take into account people do script, and they are legal (at the keyboard), some know better places to hunt, some have more runebooks, some use pets, some don't.

So without comparing everyone on a gear vs rate of return, i don't think an audit system can be fairly implemented. I know people who can kill a lot more efficiently than me with less gear because they are simply more skilled, and this system wouldn't solve that either.

I think there are just too many factors to take into account, that simple logs won't account for. They don't take into account script efficiency, player knowledge, re-spawn rates, gear level, skill level, or other pertinent information.

So i guess what I'm asking, is how do you catch or flag the people with this, who are in the middle, and doing it afk vs someone better than them, doing it legally? Is it worth it to take the time to do this, or just stick with manual afk checks, and possibly afk checks on X number of monsters killed?

I guess it could be said that the average player doesn't play for more than X amount of hours per day, but even that has exceptions. I know people (myself included some days) who are on here for 16 hours at a time, or more. If i decide to do an overnighter, am i flagged just because i couldn't sleep?
Last edited by Asmodean on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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+Nyx
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by +Nyx »

Tacityl wrote:...I'm simply not convinced it's so large a problem...
I just want to point out that you are new here and thus your stubbornness in regards to how prevalent the AFK problems have become is understandable, if misguided.

In the past several months, we have logged over 125 AFK violations. And those are only the ones we have *caught*. Lately I have only been able to do AFK rounds once a week, tops. Nobody else on staff does them. I also check any player who is paged on when I am on to see said page. But there are huge blocks of time every day, every week, when AFK'ing goes unchecked because we are not here/not able to do it. Every time I *am* able to do rounds, I catch and 'punish' at least 1 person. Usually 3-4 additional fail to reply (or fail to reply appropriately) to the afk check; but then they reply while I am in the process of documenting and moving them to jail. Colibri has decided that these instances should slide, and does not want those players punished in those cases, so they aren't. Which means they are also not documented, and not included in the 125 violations I mentioned above.

So, yes, it is a VERY large problem; and the problem only gets worse over time. It is November and just in the last 11 months the problem has become noticeably worse than it was last year. Our punishments are not a deterrent at all. They know they will not incur any permanent losses, and that they will never be banned for it. Even those who are gross repeat offenders, whose violations are in the double digits for their time on this shard, incur no permanent loss and are not banned. Thus, none of them really care whether they get caught; so more and more are joining the shard and doing it too.

It is a very complex issue with some very fine lines between smart, logical problem solving and mistreatment of the rule-abiding player base. That is why I have always felt, and still do, that it needs a complex and multi-layered solution. I have already posted many of my thoughts on the matter of AFK violations and I'm not going to do so again, but I did want you to hear it "from the source" that yes. This is a huge problem.
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Tacityl
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Tacityl »

Ok, fair enough. It's a huge problem. In my defense, I would say I'm skeptical, not stubborn. I've played a lot of MMOs, and MUSHes before that. This issue comes up a lot, and in the past has gotten blown out of proportion in other games.

Harsher, permanent penalties are fine by me. I don't even have a problem with one-strike-you're-out. I just think imposing frequent AFK checks for common actions crosses that line into mistreatment of the rule-abiding player base.
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