Anti-AFK system upgrade

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Anti-AFK system to include everything?

Yes, make it include everything, with some exceptions
22
29%
No
55
71%
 
Total votes: 77

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Yoda
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Yoda »

well back to the topic at hand

the only issue with the recall check as I see it and it was already hinted at.. it just moves the problem.

you put a recall afk check and

a) some script their way around it
b) people switch to standing still and leveling

but what it doesn't do is stamp out the problem

I think that comes from deterrants that actually pose a credible threat (hinted at by +nyx already)
and perhaps more bodies doing the checking (coli put out a call for new staff)

the interesting thing is this topic went dead, and was recently ressurrected. not sure why

everyone thinks they have a solution to the problem of afk'rs

well Its always going to be there coli scripts in the most advanced automated checking of all time that prevents exploits a) b) and c)

and the hardcore scriptor writes a macro that defeats the prevention, or just does d) to avoid it..

sounds weird but you could compare it to an arms race.

Yoda
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Larsa
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Larsa »

Like most of the people here I am starting to feel irritated and frustrated as well... it seems that the new additions to the game is to actually prevent gripe and supposedly make the game more enjoyable. No matter how many things you implement, people will still cry foul... they will say that they were within the "afk rules", that they were jailed unfairly, that the checks in place are not accurate.

I used to put a lot of hours in the game, but it's getting very discouraging... not saying that I am a afk exploiter, I can live with all the changes that have been implemented up to date. It is the negativity that has been mounting this past year that wears me down. I think I am about to put down the mouse and start to look for a new hobby.

I also agree that 1 1/2 staff cannot look over 150+ players' need all the time.
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+Nyx
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by +Nyx »

I am also unsure why the thread needed a bump. At this point, the staff are working on implementing harsher punishments for AFK violations as well as a jail system that will be participatory - no more going to play xbox for a week or three while your jail time ticks down. We feel that harsher punishments + more interactive jail will serve as actual deterrents to violations, and will then eliminate the need for more drastic (And, in my opinion, horrifying) measures such as AFK checks for everything.
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+Colibri
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by +Colibri »

Just a quick explanation:

The anti-afk rules are there because this shard isn't intended as a central hub for a bunch of bots sending data between each other. Also, if there's a few dozen players who have it all automated and just check once per day if it's still running, then players who don't know how to make good macros are at a complete disadvantage.

I understand that grinding (things like mining ore, leveling a weapon) is very repetitive, we don't request that you wear out your mouse or get carpal tunnel syndrome, so doing it with a macro is ok. But you have to be present.
- For very passive things like mining, you can be away for as long as 10 minutes (even if you're at work, or cooking... as long as you check in frequently).
- For active things like weapon leveling, you have to be here at all times, because you can accidentally steal kills from other players. Still possible to browse the internet while doing it, but requires a lot more attention. If you can script a macro, then surely you can also script a CTRL+<SomeKey> that pauses the macro and recalls you to your house. If you need to go to the bathroom or answer the door, or even have to drive someone to the hospital, you simply press those keys in the 1 second it takes you to stand up from your chair. (But ok, it can happen that something urgent comes up, if it happens less frequently than 3 months you only get a warning).


I see a lot of mentioning about having more staff to check players for afk - yes, we are currently in low numbers, but:
- Even if there are 5 staff on the team, there will be times of the day, or days/weeks when checks will not be made.
- It is a very time consuming task to cycle thru 100-200 players (even with a handy tool that i coded to make it go faster).
- It's not uncommon for me to get an email complaint when someone is caught. "That staffer is unfair, they're cheating, they just wanted to jail me even though i was here". Ok, i go look at the logs, find that it's all legit, ... but 15-30 minutes is wasted.
- There is a conspiracy theory that "only I am getting checked while that other guy is afk and always gets away with it".
- You know who jailed you, you know who to be mad at. If it's coded, it's the system, it gives the same 10 minutes to every player (not 13 minutes to one and 11 minutes to another, because it's busy checking on some other player).

Solution... mentioned in the first post :)

AFK macroing will be against the rules and there will always be penalties for it. This poll is just to find which is better:
1. It's automated - if you're very active you'd probably get checked every day but if caught, penalties could be lower. We spend less time with this non-constructive activity.
2. We do it manually... problems remain. But we have a lot of repeat offenders, seems like some players don't really mind risking it, worst that can happen is a 1-day jail which isn't a problem to wait, then be more careful for the next 3 months, then the story repeats itself, which implies that penalties and decay times are too permissive.



Explanation to +Nyx's post earlier: There is a special jail almost ready to be put in, where you have to work your way out. For all those players who repeatedly violate rules (usually language and afk rules) but since it happens every few months, that player usually just gets a day or two of jailtime... which as +Nyx ilustrated, isn't hard to wait out.

Anyway, there's not much to discuss further on this topic. I will leave as is, unless if i get fed up with the issues of the current system.
+Colibri, Administrator of UO Excelsior Shard

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Nightstarwolf
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Nightstarwolf »

Truly said, I dont understand all that discussion.
Problem is afk macroing, shortly said.
Solution is even that easy.
No afk, no macroing !!
Thats it.

Oh what a cry now all "I want it all-babys" will do.
But, for which reason?
Aint all veterans ran through exactly this for years?
Playing UO does not mean, reaching a multiple GM within 1 hour.
(Who just wants such, should build up himself his own server and create his god there.)
This is UO, not WoW !
Kagan
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Kagan »

Since the topic is brought back.... Love you guys but you work so dang hard to keep fixing things that to me arent broken. I love seeing new dungeons opened and more content put in, and most assuredly dont want to see a bunch more afk checks for doing 'almost anything' on the shard. The staff we have is absolutely super, but they need help. Nyx and V are babysitting 200 people day in and day out. I think I would go on a shardwide killing spree very quickly if I had to put up with what they do. Now having said that. If they catch someone AKFing on something that is a NO NO right now....drop the hammer of god on them and that will cut out this nonsense of cheating. Like I said, love you guys but I would prefer to see Bod fixes that someone mentioned, or the weapon abilities that dont work, or the craftables that cant be made. Sgail is up, Sgail is down, Umbris is up, Umbris is down. I would love to have things like that fixed for once and all(Thus more staff). Lady Mel needing keys is another gripe(shouldnt be a priority TO ME anyway), etc. Please dont take this as a complaint because its not. I just wish we showed as much enthusiasm for new content and finshing things as we do for creating more things to take care of a handful of bad apples. Again +Col, +Nyx, +V, love you all and love this shard. Sorry for the rant.
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Acacia
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Acacia »

I think the whole implimenting a 2 week-1 month ban/delete wep/take gold seems a bit unfair

As a mod i would think they have full access to records of playtime/gains (but that's just an assumption)
If that's true, why not do (as you said) the two weeks of jail or 75-100 tasks in rock jail + rollback of the weapon to it's stats before the afk check, or if you wanted to be harsh and really make it a learning lesson; start it over at level zero. I don't macro/level at all, but I have been checked while leveling and merely changing a song, and almost missed the deadline to answer.

perhaps make it as osi had, pull the player into a black, circular room, away from monsters, and anything obstructing the view of the player. Give them their 30 seconds to answer a question, and make the room unable to recall/journey ect. out of
Dramoor
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Dramoor »

[quote="Acacia"]I think the whole implimenting a 2 week-1 month ban/delete wep/take gold seems a bit unfair

As a mod i would think they have full access to records of playtime/gains (but that's just an assumption)
If that's true, why not do (as you said) the two weeks of jail or 75-100 tasks in rock jail + rollback of the weapon to it's stats before the afk check, or if you wanted to be harsh and really make it a learning lesson; start it over at level zero. I don't macro/level at all, but I have been checked while leveling and merely changing a song, and almost missed the deadline to answer.

perhaps make it as osi had, pull the player into a black, circular room, away from monsters, and anything obstructing the view of the player. Give them their 30 seconds to answer a question, and make the room unable to recall/journey ect. out of[/quote]

You do not realize how bad people afk leveling was before this system was put into place. Without giving names I can say there is about 5 to 10 Active players right now that would port in, kill all the stuff I am killing, or another player was, claim their stuff, and move on. And then get Pmd or at the next location asked repeatedly to not do it, with no response. Just to see that same player Selling that weapon 2 days later for a huge steep price for playing xbox.

As for pulling to a singular room...All it would take is being pulled to that room one time, and a scripter could automate it to alert them anytime they were pulled to that area. Heck they used to just ask on their staff character "Are you there?" And you could automate with a journal scan to Respond "yes, I am" then go back to leveling. People want to automate and try to get around the system, they fix the system.

And as +Colibri said, the first time is a warning.....A warning does not seem very harsh to me....But the only time i could see a person saying a second offense was harsh, is when they actually planned on a second offense. Yes afk checks are annoying sometimes especially when we automate our systems for leveling attacking/recalling. But they are needed, and when enforced should help deter many of the players who think that they should be entitled to just hit play, go to bed, or go out on a date or play xbox and get their weapon leveled.
Anna Marie
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Anna Marie »

I don't get all the fuss about the afk checks. If you read the rules first you KNOW to not be afk while doing certain things. Simple as that. Ya break the rules then you get what you get. It's like in real life. You break the law you get a ticket or go to jail. That is one thing wrong with the world today. People seem to think they are allowed to do whatever. People are so selfish anymore. It's all about me me me. Don't like the rules you don't need to play here. That's the point of having the rules there. When I was looking around for a shard I always read the rules first to see if I will like the place or not. If it says something I don't like such as PK shard I don't go on there to play seeing as I don't PK. How hard is it to understand that?
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+Veritas
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by +Veritas »

I think you both nailed it on the head there.

The system is the way it is for a reason, much like the champ system being the way it is. It evolved to that due to players before you trying to take advantage of it. We could have a captcha for hunting, but it would only be a matter of time before someone would script that. Plus, it would be incredibly annoying for the obviously present players. We could PM you to check (and we use to), but you can make a macro in Razor to alert you of incoming PMs. We could pop out, but you can script that as well. We could also roll back leveled weapons to level 0, but we do not have a pre-leveled weapon deed reference in item properties to see the stats before leveling. We would need to add an entirely new property branch to every single item that can accept a leveling deed, and then reference that and match it with the property branch that deeds would use for calculating the stats on the leveled weapon. You could say that is our problem, but is it really? Essentially...no. Why would we have to invest more time into something that you did, to correct/punish you?

Never once was there a case where a staffer took less than 30 seconds to check if a player was AFK.
Never once was a player checked with a static or mobile that didn't drastically contrast the immediate surroundings.

If you are playing the game (even with partial attention to the screen) you're going to notice that neon green wall asking you what 5 + 5 is.

Also, please note that you will be checked if you have reflect physical damage on any of your armor pieces and you are standing still while mobs are attacking you. This is the case even if you are not swinging your weapon (or don't have one equipped). You can still gain tokens by killing mobs that engage you and do not run away before death (or at all).

+V
-{Excelsior Shard Administrator, and Death Event Extraordinaire}-

May the BODs be ever in your favor!
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dillingham
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by dillingham »

I think +R is doing a great job. I really like the bright color he chose its stand out from the back drop of most dungeons.
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Acacia
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Acacia »

[quote="Dramoor"]You do not realize how bad people afk leveling was before this system was put into place. Without giving names I can say there is about 5 to 10 Active players right now that would port in, kill all the stuff I am killing, or another player was, claim their stuff, and move on. And then get Pmd or at the next location asked repeatedly to not do it, with no response. Just to see that same player Selling that weapon 2 days later for a huge steep price for playing xbox.

As for pulling to a singular room...All it would take is being pulled to that room one time, and a scripter could automate it to alert them anytime they were pulled to that area. Heck they used to just ask on their staff character "Are you there?" And you could automate with a journal scan to Respond "yes, I am" then go back to leveling. People want to automate and try to get around the system, they fix the system.

And as +Colibri said, the first time is a warning.....A warning does not seem very harsh to me....But the only time i could see a person saying a second offense was harsh, is when they actually planned on a second offense. Yes afk checks are annoying sometimes especially when we automate our systems for leveling attacking/recalling. But they are needed, and when enforced should help deter many of the players who think that they should be entitled to just hit play, go to bed, or go out on a date or play xbox and get their weapon leveled.[/quote]

I understand what you mean. But wasn't referring to second offense, I was saying as a first offense, a rollback of the weapon to zero+rock jail. second offence ban would be okay; I'd hope it would be appealable in some way though.
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by Unbeliever »

I'd like to throw the very humble opinions and observations of a 2-month player in here. It's a topic that's of considerable interest to me because I honestly love playing here and this has a very meaningful impact on the server economy and health.

The very first time I went to Doom, a few weeks ago, I ran into three players in three different areas doing exactly what Dramoor said used to happen (I also will not name names in this post). They recalled in to the exact same spot about once a minute, auto-attacking and auto-claiming everything in the immediate area including creatures that my mules were attacking or had just killed. I was robbed of loot several times, I had no idea what they were doing or the system and rules in place regarding it, so I didn't PM anyone or page about it. But if those players were attended, they clearly did not intend to alter the behavior unless someone DID go those extra steps.

I've seen many maxed level weapons sold and offered for sale in my short time here. I believe those who say that it was worse at one point in time. However, just because something looks good by comparison to something worse that does not mean that it is good. I've come to believe that to many players this is the endgame - watching (or not watching) a script level weapons, selling them for ED or gold which will be converted into ED, rinse, repeat, and get all the best the sever has to offer as a reward for not even playing the game.

Maybe old timers feel that the situation has died down enough to be acceptable but to a new player it seems like it's still a profitable and active business. I've asked myself several times "Is this what I'm supposed to aspire to?". I've been playing UO for many years and I know that people argue more in defense of laziness, leniency, and in general "easy mode" than anything else. But this is something that harsh penalties should be a requirement for. Not for the sake of being a hardcase but because it's much better to clamp down on one person who doesn't respect staff's authority or wishes, doesn't care about their effect on the server, and doesn't even play the game than it is to allow the ripple effect their bad behavior will have across the economy and attitudes of new and old players alike.

The last thing I want to say - and ask about - is the Lord Oaks champion spawn. Champion spawns quickly became my favorite thing to do here on Excelsior but I've never seen one of these yet. I read on the forums, found out where they were, read all about the incredible effort made to deter players who were afk camping Oaks and had it locked down. Yet it seems to me that by the very nature of how it is set up - three different non-markable locations, only one of which will provide a skull - it creates the situation. In a perfect world where no one cheated it would still be incredibly difficult to catch one of those spawns more than once in a great while. In the real world, won't everyone just say "This is too ridiculous, I'll never catch one of those/It's way too much work running back and forth checking for nothing/Others will be cheating anyway so I need to cheat too in order to keep up" et cetera? It has been said earlier - people will eventually script around any guards that are put in place. Are there not people now who have simply adapted to the changes and circumvent the spirit of the new system? (I have a few possible ideas how myself but won't outline them here).
Maybe I'm completely wrong but I think by making it less exclusive, you could actually reduce the cheating drastically. I'd offer as proof the fact that you almost NEVER see players camping any other champ spawns, and I think that's because they know they'll get something back for their efforts. They won't recall/run to the other champs and come up dry 499 (or 500) out of 500 times. Imagine if the Oaks spawns worked the same way - once a week at each location and only one of them dropped a skull - but the times of each spawn were advertised at the start of the week. Valor 10am Monday, Humility 6pm Thursday, Blood 8PM Saturday. Everyone would eventually (over the course of weeks) get a chance to participate in the spawns regardless of their schedules while probably few people would be able to make it to all of them. Everyone would eventually (over the course of months) get a fair shot at the skull and thereby a stat scroll. And no one would have any reason to camp the thing any longer. What does everyone think?
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+Nyx
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Re: Anti-AFK system upgrade

Post by +Nyx »

Regarding champs/oaks, Coli already has some ideas in the works that will help with the various issues surrounding these spawns. They'll be announced when they're released, until then the current systems will stay in place.

This thread is well past its expiration date, the AFK system has already been decided on and long-since implemented. It is currently working well for what it is meant to do. Now that we have a new staffer, there will likely be more frequent AFK checks to help eliminate those who are grossly violating these rules when they think we're asleep or away. There is really nothing new to add to this topic, since as I mentioned it's already done with, and there is no need to bump and re-bump an ancient thread. Nothing that has been posted since the bump is new or unique - it was all said before, when this topic was up for vote and being decided on. That being the case, I am locking it.
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