Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Vote on the shard-related matters and/or give your arguments.
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Poll ended at Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:01 pm

I vote that the system be changed to the random resource veins
17
24%
I am against the change, please leave it as it is
46
66%
Either way is fine with me
7
10%
 
Total votes: 70

Pocketcow
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Pocketcow »

You guys are posting comments against me as if I'm some crazed new player looking for wealth.

First of all, don't even bring skill gains to the argument. As a new player, I gm'ed mining in something like 2 hours. I'm not even all that good at this game either. Skill is a non issue and even the newest young player will be after GM ores, and possibly even higher ones if they save up and get a mining powerscroll.

Secondly, as I cannot do anything with the ore atm, I actually do prefer iron and don't really care either way. I was just looking at it from a game perspective. What you guys have now is about the same as going to a grocery store and picking out a piece of fruit. (Leave all the bad ones for the noobs?)

Rare ore is not rare when it's cataloged and waiting to be ravaged at every spawn. Lower spawn chance would actually make the rare ore "rare" in the sense that only the people who got lucky, or spent time mining would see it.

I got here three days ago and I really love it here. The way the system is now is perfectly fine with me. I was just pointing out that from a game's point of view, I can see how the admin would want to change it.

But yeah, I know how much time it takes to set up a runebook and it would definitely hurt to have those made worthless. Don't worry, I see the veteran side of the argument as well, even if on this shard, I am a new player who seemingly has no experience.
Pocketcow
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Pocketcow »

One thing I didn't really address in my above comment was a comment made about benefits to new players over veterans.

This is completely false. New players benefit MORE than veterans by the current system. We have loads of public runebooks with spots for ore. We have the ability to mine up piles of iron to sell to veterans who want to work on crafting but are "bored" of mining. The only thing missing from a new player's perspective is the 120 mining powerscroll. I'd say that's not too shabby.

It doesn't feel very special at all when everything is known. You go out mining for a specific ore and you know what you're going to get. There's no luck or sense of adventure/discovery involved in mining in the current system. To highlight this fact, consider how many people want to buy iron ingots. It's not like you need a runebook to find it. They do it because it's boring and they would rather do something else they consider fun.

Same goes for pretty much any ingot type because they are all the same. (some might require more recalling though) You might as well just put an option on the pick/shovel to only mine a specific type of ingot since the rest will be skipped.

After all, you don't expect specific loot to drop off a monster every time do you? No, because it wouldn't be fun. Neither is mining when everything is known. Randomness creates excitement and will make even the most mundane things more fun.
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

'You guys are posting comments against me as if I'm some crazed new player looking for wealth.'

You guys? I only disagreed with you on one point. :)

Other than that I am glad to see someone else posting that sees the positive in this.
Pocketcow
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Pocketcow »

Yeah, that was the goal. I know everyone seems pretty down about this suggested change and it's VERY obvious from the poll. I guess I was just trying to point out the world wouldn't end.

I also know that I am a new player and my opinion isn't regarded as being as important. It's nice to be able to have a debate on these forums without having anyone attack me though.

Lots to like about this shard so far!!
Penny
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Penny »

Just trying to sum up :)

What is now:
===========

- Only iron and plat are the ones really selling (also normal log and petrified?)

BODs take all kinds of ores/logs. But people have the runebooks to static veins.
It's a few minute script to get the ore/logs for the BOD, thus no trade there.
Also the custom craftables, keys/houses/etc, use only plat and petrified.
Otherwise they'd be too easy to make.

- Plat is abundant

I mean abundant. Not really much value for plat armor, unless it has uber stats.
You don't see much of armor that is made from other materials, unless it's looted.
In my mind, high end ores should be rare, something you have to go through some
effort to find. I remember playing on a shard (years and years ago) where valorite
armor was SWEET, and you got a good price for it.

- Static Veins

Safe income for anyone, but the system is boring.

Scripts.

What would be:
=============

- PARTIALLY random veins.

Meaning, you'd still get quite a good amount of ore from the vein once you find it.

- Can't really just go and run a script to get that 250 gold ingots for the BOD

This would make the BOD fillers buy the ingots from the miners. More customers,
for other ores than iron/plat.

- Custom craftables requiring other materials than plat/petrified

This would spread the need for different ores/logs. Again, miners would be
the source of these.

- High end ores/logs more rare

Prices go up. Good for miners, bad for buyers. But, money is pretty easy to come by
with hunting. Also, the prices of armor/deco/etc would go up too. So the middle won't
suffer that much.

===============================

With the new system, miners would be able to sell more of different kinds
of ore for higher price. And get more customers

With ores being more rare, the prices of armor would go up. But the amount of
people who need armor would still be the same. So crafters benefit too.

Pretty much the only ones who suffer are the hunters. But I think gold is still easy
enough to come by.

That's about it. It's late so i must have missed something. Please add your views.

P.S. If the new system comes, I'll be going to the mines so fast I won't even remember
losing my rune library for veins :)
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Tael
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Tael »

I guess my main disagreement with you guys is that you think that making mining "interesting" is a good idea, and I think that mining isn't supposed to be interesting. I also think that you can't make mining fun no matter what you do, and once the novelty has worn off a new approach (maybe in just an hour or two, heh) you'll be left with a boring task that is not even reliable anymore.
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bogka
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by bogka »

Tael, I beg to differ on your view.

Those of us who's main income rely on obtaining certain qualities (and quantity) of ore/ingots to allow us to economically benefit would stand to lose a great percentage of profit share if changes occurred. However, having a system that proved more challenging would not only spread the wealth around to more than 2 or 3 people but also produce a viable economy for those just starting out to provide resources to those other new players who need specific ores.

You say that it isn't fun; yet you probably spend a lot of time keeping your vendors stocked with ample supplies of metal so that we the players will have something to purchase to fulfill BODs/Skills/needs. For me, mining is fun, especially when you throw some ele's in there to break up the monotony. Changes to the system would put back into play the use of the prospector tool and allow people to actually adventure on their own, rather than relying on all the hard work that others have put into mapping out ore locations.

I enjoy mining occationally, for a couple hours or unill I have what I need. An economy cannot flourish if only one person is providing the supply, we need More people that are fighting to be suppliers. (And if all the spots are constantly depleated, there cannot be enough people getting involved with the tradework. )
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Tael
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Tael »

Quotes still not working
@ Jack

"- Can't really just go and run a script to get that 250 gold ingots for the BOD"

Well, I'm sure that some of us could, but you're mostly correct. However I don't see how making mining less attractive for the casual player is a worthwhile goal for this proposed system.

For the record, I guess I've run the most reliable ingot vendors for the past six months or so, and I'm not in favor of making ingots harder to get for BOD-fillers or more expensive.

"- Custom craftables requiring other materials than plat/petrified"

Yeah, that's a good idea, but you don't need random ore spots to implement this.

@ bogka

It's probably true that there are only 2 or 3 serious bulk miners, but this is because others don't stick with it. Over and over I see ingot vendors pop up and then disappear after a week or so, simply because the player finds more interesting things to do. Mining is for newbies and the hard-core few who like to mine. Making mining more challenging will spread no wealth and will benefit new players in no way that I can see.

"An economy cannot flourish if only one person is providing the supply, we need More people that are fighting to be suppliers."

Actually I'd love to feel less pressure to provide ingots. Lately I can't keep iron stocked because of all the new players. Bring on the competition, I could use a vacation. But first you have to explain how making mining more arbitrary and difficult will create more suppliers of ingots.

"(And if all the spots are constantly depleated, there cannot be enough people getting involved with the tradework. )"

Oh. Well, there are lots of plat spots I know where I've never seen another miner. And I'm sure there's lots more plat spots that I don't know. Perhaps the problem is that everyone is using the same runebooks, and the solution to that is to get out there and map your own spots.
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bogka
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by bogka »

Very good points, Tael. I guess what it really boils down to in my mind (with no idea of which way the scale should fall) is that if rare elements were harder to obtain, there wouldn't be so many vendors with ultra uber gear for sale for inflated prices.

Rather there would be a couple of vendors with some really great stuff at prices that were warranted for the quality of the piece. I guess I'm taking this whole thing outside the general scope of "Changes to mining/lumberjacking veins"...

You've got some very valid points and I do hope you continue to provide the service that you do. Though, I do think that taking you up on your offer sounds very enticing.

Hope to see you around :)
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Tael
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Tael »

Bogka:

Actually I always found decent armor hard to find on this shard.

When this thread drifts into discussions of the marketplace, though, I can't help but think that the random resource proposal is merely a solution in search of a problem. For example, there's no way to predict if changing mining would change the market in a way you'd want. If good ingots/runics become harder to find, then good craftables become harder to find. Then the new players who can no longer get good stuff will be mad at those who already have good stuff. Then we have more anti-vet tirades ... save us from those, lol.

I don't think this proposal was intended to make plat more rare, anyway, or to change anything about the current economy. It was to make mining more interesting as an activity, but I've already expressed my doubts about that. :)
KnitePrince
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

making ores random wont make it more interesting,or make more people want to mine, it will do just the opposite when they realize, they have to mine forever and a day to get the ores they want...

they can no longer go to a spot they know about to get those ores, they have to mine much longer, and much harder, digging worthless ores, that even the people that do bods don't want, because over half of the bod rewards aren't really worth the struggle fill out for a more or less worthless reward. the people that do bods, like myself, want certain rewards,a nd we struggle for those rewards.. trying to get the small bods to fill the large bods to get the +5 mining gear for instance.. once you have a colored forge or two, you dont really want any more of them. You might try to get a smithers protector just so youcan say you have one.. its junk, but its cool to have ONE.. i wouldnt struggle to get another one..
look at the ingots on those ingot vendors when you see them. What ingots are left on there? usually the ones that go to the worthless bods... i have sold ingots from the day I started playing... i quit buying ingots when i started to build up a HUGE stockpile of the ingots no one wants... i trashed several thousand of them because no one wanted to buy them...
if you make mining random, your forcing me to mine those worthless ingots in the search for the good ones.. of course, i dont have to mine them but i do have to stop and start mining to see whats there, and it will take time, MORE time than mining already takes.
it takes about 1/8th the time to fill a bod that it takes to mine the ingots for it.. and thats KNOWING where to go mine for those ingots... if i no longer knew where to go... i wouldn't even try.. and I LOVE mining!!!!
i mine for HOURS making my books... like the ingots, some of those books are worthless... i haven't even opened them since I made them, but I DID enjoy making them... I Enjoy having an extensive library that i can reference to find certain ingots when i need them, or someone hires me to mine for them...
make ores random you take away that joy, and make mining a chore, a pain that isn't really worth it, at least to me, an old guy that enjoys mining.
When LIVE switched to random ores.. it killed the player miners, and opened the door to the macroers... no one wanted to mine anymore, including me. the ONLY way to get ores with random, is to mine endlessly... the best way would be to start a macro and go to bed.. wake up, toss out the junk ores and refine the good ones...
i for one, wouldnt deal with mining any longer if they are made random. i left live for this very reason, i would leave here as well, as much as i like it here, youd be taking away my reason, my joy in playing on Excelsior. non random ores were THE primary reason i started playing here.. it was THE first question i asked when I logged on... "Are ores random here?"
it just so happened to be A Black Death that gave me my noob tour, and he said "No ores are static..." i said lead on tour guide!
Please don't take away my favorite shard, and make it as crappy as all the other shards!
KnitePrince
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

Sorry for the double post,but I wanted to point out something i forgot;

Coli said;

Things to note
I strongly support this change because it equals the chance between those that can install EasyUO and eventually also find and use this script, and those that can't.

If i saw the script i wouldn't use it... why? Because i do not need to use it.. even if i could figure out how to make it work...
My enjoyment,is FINDING those spots, marking them, and building my library. So, i have spent untold uncounted hours mining and finding these spots. others have also found some of my spots.. but usually, i see no one in my spots.. once in a while i will find a pile of ore, or granite where someone mined the good ores, and dumped the iron, but it is not often.. if i do hit one of those spots, i move on. i have four plat books, the last one isnt full, hopefully as i continue to search I will fill it. if i find someone int he area i have marked, i can move to another book.
if someone was to use this thingy that tells them where all the ores are what have they gained? they saved themselves a bit of time in searching.. but buying a book from someone that already had those spots mapped would have been just as easy if not easier...
with the amount of miners on the shard, if even say four or five of them used this, what would be the detriment to the shard? No, it isnt really fair to me, and others that struggled to get their locations by slow methodical searching.. but by the same token, if you make the ores random, now you are punishing me, for what 'they" are doing.

mining isnt a glorious past time, and most people do not last long mining, they move on to other things. Even if they had this program, I think they will not last any longer mining than they would if they just bought their books and locations... these are people that obviously do not enjoy mining in the first place if they have to cheat like that, so eventually they will drop out of the picture, even if they have this fancy gizmo. So they mark the locations and sell the books? to what gain? they could do the same thing now without the gizmo.
I enjoy the search. this program would completely void the fun, the satisfaction i get when I find a good ore.
I know you like the idea of "semi" random ores, but I honestly think, that there is a line between trying to stop the cheaters, and destroying the fun of those who are not cheating.
I think your mining macro computer thingy that checks on us when mining is an insult, but at the same time, I understand why you have it, even if i do not like it.. so I type in the three letter code when it pops up... (i tried swearing at it but it ignored me) and i keep going.
i found out today, that Power scrolls are few and far between now, and I payed the price for two that i found, i need a dozen, and no one has any.. i am a miner, and a crafter, i don't do champs, so I am forced to buy the scrolls... cheaters, and exploiters made you change how the champs dropped scrolls... ok, I understand why you changed it, but it is making life hard now that i am trying to put a character together for my daughter, who will be playing here soon.
i can deal with it.
Changing how the ores spawn, as you described, will most certainly ruin my enjoyment, as well as more hours than i care to count. once i have found a good spot, and mapped it, i want to be able to return there for that ore, this, allows me to do other things, breeding pets, crafting and caring for my bees and plants. Struggling to find locations every time they change is not my idea of having fun, it fits in more along the lines of desperation.. i have done my work, I have struggled and searched and dug, and found where the good ores are. I mapped them, now I can continue on looking for more spots at my leisure... when i am not caring for my bees and plants, and crafting and breeding pets and filling my vendors.... As it is, i don't have the time I would like to live in this alternate reality. I see what you are trying to do, and why. I do understand, but i disagree with the principle of it, because I/we are being punished because others choose to cheat.
I just ask, that you consider that there ARE people who play on Excelsior that do so because we like it here. if you can catch someone cheating, then perma ban them on the spot. if you cannot catch them, please don't make all of us pay for their crimes.
Sigh, sorry for another book, and hope i didnt repeat myself too much, but i do feel strongly about this.
Knite
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

KnitePrince - Sounds like you mine about how i do.. The thrill in mining is finding the spots for me too.

The proposed changes would not effect people like us much at all because we already spend time looking for new spots.

Think about it... there would always be spots to find.

And those spots that pretty much only you mine would be there for some time.



I don't know how the other shards mining works but Colibri stated that this is not the same. He also said he was going to post this again with more details on what he is actually considering. So I think we should trust in Colibri enough to hear what his plan actually is before we consider it the total destruction of mining as we know it.
KnitePrince
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

I do like finding new locations, and searching out hard to get to areas for ores.. I like to do it when i can, when i have the time, and other things, either in game or real life allow.. not be forced to do it.
the difference can be related to real life gardening. to plant a garden, and harvest the fruits of your labor is rewarding, and supplements the food you buy making you feel good about what you did... as opposed to growing a garden and knowing you will starve to death during the winter if your garden fails to produce.. yes an extreme example, but like mining, with static or changeable ores.. one is fun, and one is stressful.
I play to have fun, not to get more stress than RL already gives me.
I play here because there are certain things I want in a "fun" shard.

#1 static ores.
#2 good friendly staff that don't hand out uberness to anyone that wants it.
#3 a good pet system for breeding/beekeeping etc etc
#4 good craftable menu options hopefully with items available most other places don't have
#5 decent player base, governed by the "honor" system where gankers, liers, cheaters and thieves are discouraged

There are many other things that make me Like Excelsior, and they add to the reason I play here, but those 5 things are necessary for "me" to even start playing on a shard, and they are necessary to keep me playing.

I am a retired mechanic. i have arthritis in my hands and wrists. i have broken fingers and never went to the doctor to have them set.. i am even missing a finger. I have to look at the keyboard, because i cannot "set" my hands to the keys as a typist can do and type without looking, because of the missing fingers and arthritis. When it comes to combat, I am not fast, and when I MUST be fast in order to survive, I hit the wrong key, or hit the right key incorrectly, and I die. I still fight, I still hunt, in situations i can control without being rushed or pushed.. when i know My fingers will not betray me. Normally, i do things that do not threaten my characters life because i know I cannot keep up when things go wrong. that means mining and crafting are at the top of my list. so...
If Coli decides to change mining, he will make that decision on what he thinks is best for everyone, not just me, or you... but for the shard in general.. if the decision is made to change mining. It will be a decision based on everything combined, i will not rant, because I respect him for making the hard choice... but it will be the decision that forces me to go elsewhere.. no matter how much it hurts me.
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

I understand that the way random ore is done on other shards has left people with a bad taste in their mouth. And there is a random element to this that brings that taste to peoples mouths which they are having problems getting past.

But I agree that this is 100% Colibri's decision.

And even though I am an old dog too I would not quit something just because it changed. I would have to at least giving it a try first. After all Colibri did say that it would be different than the others.
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