Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Vote on the shard-related matters and/or give your arguments.
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Poll ended at Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:01 pm

I vote that the system be changed to the random resource veins
17
24%
I am against the change, please leave it as it is
46
66%
Either way is fine with me
7
10%
 
Total votes: 70

Kimitsu
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Kimitsu »

for the changes to be valid, the entire shard economics should be reviewed. for example, all artifact weapons and armor must be deleted, or made extremely rare too. also, craftable weapons must receive the same amount of leveling points as any other weapon. also, low level ore and wood must be used for something useful, for example, as ingrerients for alchemical potions, which should also be made better. petrafied wood from taming recepies must be switched for petrified wood. delete furniture and metal dyetubs. and so on. why? because even the devoted miner/lumberjack will switch to pvm otherwise. there will be no "better trade", because the prices are quite at their limit now. oh yea the customs will go up in prices, but guess what? they are generally used by the miners. i wonder how could a miner be happy with such changes.
KnitePrince
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

[quote="Kimitsu"]for the changes to be valid, the entire shard economics should be reviewed. for example, all artifact weapons and armor must be deleted, or made extremely rare too. also, craftable weapons must receive the same amount of leveling points as any other weapon. also, low level ore and wood must be used for something useful, for example, as ingrerients for alchemical potions, which should also be made better. petrafied wood from taming recepies must be switched for petrified wood. delete furniture and metal dyetubs. and so on. why? because even the devoted miner/lumberjack will switch to pvm otherwise. there will be no "better trade", because the prices are quite at their limit now. oh yea the customs will go up in prices, but guess what? they are generally used by the miners. i wonder how could a miner be happy with such changes.[/quote]


Why should artifact weapons be deleted?
Why must all weapons recieve the same leveling? what have they got to do with anything that was proposed?
Using low level wood for something useful is what we've been talking about.
Petrified wood from taming recipes must be changed for petrified wood?
Delete furny and metal dye tubs?? all of this has me totaly confused.. respectfully ask for clarification...
there is no such thing as a price limit, and by making more items useful it would certainly increase trade. As Coli stated, he would change the required metals on the customs making them easier to build to offset the greater difficulty in finding ore locations.
the prices may go up a bit at first, but everything ive done shows that by changing the requirements, as Coli said, so that it wasnt ALL about platinum anymore, the prices should settle in lower than they are now.. so yah, this is a miner that would be happy with that.
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

I must say that I am a bit confused by that post as well.
Kimitsu
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by Kimitsu »

ops, sorry for not providing some formulas behind. the problem is, the prices have limits on this shard, because of the simple reason: it's much better to wear some artifact weapon or armor, than craftable ones. I don't deny someone actually prefers the other way around, but look at all these prices for the crafted items, compare them with artifact ones, and see for yourself. No, artifacts do not cost more because they are more rare, the only reason - they are better. Especially weapons, which are levelable. That leaves BODs as the MAIN use for the ingots and boards. And bod rewards have limited value, thus setting a price limit for ingots. For example, in one of his post Calan complain about spending lots of time and 2k platinum ingots to fill a large bod, and got 250k as a reward. That pretty much sets the limit for the platinum ingots prices at their current ~100 gp per ingot. As for furniture dyetub, it is an object which compromises carpenter's effort of learning how to work with different kinds of wood, because most furniture colors can be obtained with the tub for no price at all. Other example is present. As you know, this shard has "grade a logs" and "grade a boards". Their price is almost nothing, because you can only craft ships with them, all of which can also be bought from NPC vendor in Tokuno for some 12-15k. Anyway, as long as the game has fixed prices and rewards on anything, those prices will have their effect on free market, more or less. More - in case of boards, less - in case of ingots, but in any case there is a limit, at which the player would not buy the ingots for, say, 1000k per, but will go mine for himself, or just reject the idea of getting ingots, because the reward will not be worth it.
my implication stands on the fact, that if +Colibri will apply his changes, the reward will still not be worth the loss, even if he kindly replaces the metal key requirements to from platinum to toxic. The prices on ingots may raise a little, okay, but the demand will go down, because people just plainly will have no need in ingots for such prices. So there won't be better trade.
I also beleive that there are plenty of much more urgent and desireable improvements, which would really benefit the gameplay. as someone said earlier, why would anyone fix something that works, when there are so many things that don't?
KnitePrince
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Posts: 233
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

OK, you know what? I actually agree with you.. on certain points :) On those items that can be bought from a vendor, there IS a price cap. but it is also a good thing in certain cases.
I used to pay 800 Each for Ointments. I built my houses selling organics at 80 - 100 each, and I used to buy ED for 20K each. Now I see people offering 8000 ea for those 800 oints. people are trying to get 250 Ea for organics, and getting it in some cases.. and I also see people offering to pay 45k for ED..

All of these prices are DIRECTLY the fault of the players for paying them. If we all quit paying the high prices then guess what??? The prices would come down. As it is, I expect to see ALL of those prices continue to rise. The only cap will be a self imposed cap that the players refuse to cross... if there can be such a thing.

As far as artifacts being better? Not many are better... the only really sought after arty you get from the gem of completion, and that arty stuff was DESIGNED to be better because of the difficulty of the quest.. Even then, i only wear two pices of that arty gear, because the rest of it isnt that good.. so I wear crafted Runic armor.
If I could get LMC/LRC/Luck/and good resists on every piece of armor... then i could sell every piece I made to Noobs.. it takes them all a while to realize their armor isnt that good, and switch to Hit point increase Mage armor with regens for life and mana, damage increase and reflect physical etc etc...

Plat being price capped at 100, the bod rewards have nothing to do with the price cap, i think i have only ever seen three large plat bods completed in the year i have been here, so really has nothing to do with the price of Plat.. You keep an eye on it "IF" this change happens,, it will jump up in price considerably, until everyone settles into the new system. the price will come back down but I doubt it will be as low as 100. In fact, i doubt it will be as low as 200.. but remains to be seen. Where it settles, will depend on exactly how hard it is to find, and how fast the new locations are depleted. There will also be some with stockpiles of Plat which might limit the price surge,.. unless of course they all hoard it.

As far as BOD rewards go, that was exactly the topic i was speaking of earlier in this same post, so yes, i agree with yo on how bad some of them are. Hopefully we can get that revamped a little and make bods more interesting and worthwhile so people will buy other colors of ingots from us with more regularity.

the key to the entire system, is, exactly as you describe it.. a "loss".. Because we LOSE the ability to go mine plat whenever we want, as much as we want. We will gain more ability to sell other ores. If Plat prices dont go up, then this system would be a fail., meaning it is too easy to find, and mine, and sell. If it doesnt work as intended, giving us greater profits and more diversity using other metals then its not exactly a total fail, because its just a matter of balancing the new system until it does start to bring those other materials into play.

As I see it, it isnt an all or nothing, sink or swim type of a deal.. i think Coli can adjust quantities slowly, over time, maybe without some of us even noticing it.. and slowly swing prices/supply and demand exactly into line. the system he speaks of is not the total rotation system of Mythic where every day you are out looking for new spots again.. whathe describes will be much different. when you find a spot.. you have time to mine it several times.. in fact, if you draw fifteen plat, and fifteen Iron from a brand new location, then you WILL be returning there THIRTY FOUR more times!!!! how many days will it take you to mine a spot that many times?
Some of us it will take a day, maybe two, others it will take a week.. maybe a month.

I am not saying it would be an END ALL scenario either. If for some reason the new system didnt work.... , you know really, it is infinitely adjustable, I really see no reason why it wouldn't work.. however, if it didn't, and everyone started yelling about it, I am sure Coli would put it back the way it was.

I am not really sure that I should be arguing the pros of this.. I did some research, did an analysis and came up on the wrong side of the line drawn in the sand.. the answers really did catch me off guard.. I f i could go back.. i probably would, it felt much better to be filled with righteous indignation.
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

"it's much better to wear some artifact weapon or armor, than craftable ones."

A weapon can be crafted to be better than artifacts. Thats why it has less points for leveling.



"No, artifacts do not cost more because they are more rare, the only reason - they are better."

It could be argued that crafted weapons are cheaper because the ore and runics are so readily available.




"That leaves BODs as the MAIN use for the ingots and boards."

No more than it is now. Weapons and armor would still be needed. Tools will still need to be made, jewelry, house decour, containers ect...




"Calan complain about spending lots of time and 2k platinum ingots to fill a large bod, and got 250k as a reward. That pretty much sets the limit for the platinum ingots prices at their current ~100 gp per ingot."

Yes that is the lessor reward there but you also have an equal chance to get a greater reward. Calan also did get a platinum runic hammer with that reward which would bring the rewards value closer to 375k. The real problem here is that the platinum runic hammer does not have the value that it should have because you can get them easier from the elementals. The proposed changes could actually help this some though. If the ore is not as easy to get then the hammers received from elementals would be harder to get as well.




"As long as the game has fixed prices and rewards on anything, those prices will have their effect on free market, more or less."

Agreed.



"The reward will still not be worth the loss, even if he kindly replaces the metal key requirements to from platinum to toxic."

This is pretty much personal opinion. The greatest loss is that of permanent mining locations. But at the same time many gains would come from the loss of permanent mining locations.
KnitePrince
Legendary Scribe
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:20 pm

Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

All good points.. and correct me if i am wrong.. but dont crafted weps get MORE points per level than artifacts??? As i understood it, arty weps got reduced points.. which is Why I made about 30 crossbows to get the one I wanted to level...????
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

Crafted weapons get 3 points per level. I am pretty sure that loot weapons and arties normaly get 5 points per level.

I think there is one type of arti that gets lower points also but I am not sure which ones those are.
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

I read the wiki and found that its the doom arties that are a little different than other arties:

"Doom artifact weapons require double the points to level of any other weapon."

So it sounds like Doom arties may be the ones to get the least points to spend per weapon. Or at least be the slowest to level.
KnitePrince
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by KnitePrince »

OK, TY for the correction :)
amadman
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Re: Changes to Mining/Lumberjacking veins

Post by amadman »

Not sure if I am making that clear so:

Crafted weapons get 3 points/level.

Looted and normal arties get 5 points/level

and doom arties get 5 points/level but cost double the points to increase something.
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