Variable recall cooldown

[+Colibri]

There's an overall problem with macroing/farming. Usually, this is called "that player is AFK macroing" but actually, we do many AFK checks and overall players are watching their screens. When I go check someone, I'm pretty sure I will get a response. Btw, with mostly +Kimane doing AFK checks, and me occasionally, some of you might have found some "blind spots" during the week. So I will be doing more AFK checks, at more random hours, and an automated AFK-check system could also be put on a higher priority (a more advanced one than the captcha for harvesting resources).

We've received suggestions to block recalling in to spots near Balrons, but the problem is that players would just move on to other spots that aren't yet blocked, are less profitable, but still profitable. And then we could block those spots too, but eventually we'd block out so many things, and nobody would be able to keep track of what's blocked and why.

A big part of the problem I see here, is that it's possible to recall around very fast (or using other recall-like spells). In regular UO with limited skills, travel by spell would be reserved for a selected few character types, but here it's possible to be everything at once, so it distorts the power of that ability.

There are 2 problems:
- It's possible to be in many places at once. With regular dungeon crawling, one can clear out a dungeon and then move on to the next level/room, or even go to a different dungeon. With fast travel it's possible to switch faster - just do the better monsters, then instantly go to a different dungeon and clear out the cream of the crop there, and so on. But with the way we have it, it's possible to recall every 2 seconds, basically monitoring and farming about 20 spots, and you do the full list in 60 seconds. Sometimes there's a monster at the location, so make that about 90 seconds to do the full circle. And although that is fun to do, it's just too powerful. With most spawn being timed at 5-10 minutes, one can farm the best 20 spots on the shard, as long as they're not in Felucca/Ilshenar or other recall-disabled zone.
- Doing AFK checks because of intense recalling is very hard, and sometimes close to impossible. Btw, I'd like to implement an automated AFK check system, but very soon there will be a script that can answer it with very good precision, and so we will upgrade it periodically - but we will probably always have to manually check players, to try new methods of getting people's attention. So I try to be creative, to "break" someone's script get them to slow down somehow, so I can do the AFK check. And that's extra mental work, and it's time consuming, and we have to do huge numbers of AFK checks. I have just tried to check a player, they're recalling around at an interval of about every 2 seconds, and so by the time I click anything or place an obstacle or do an eye-catching effect, they're already gone.


So I'm thinking in the direction of a variable cooldown for fast-travel spells (Recall, Sacred Journey, Nature's Passage).
This would be done in a way that, if you recall around to a few places, you could still do it without any interruption. But doing it many times, too frequently in a short amount of time, would accumulate as a debuff that persists for a while, making the recalls slower.


Option: Simple tracking of last number of recalls in X minutes
The server would keep a track of how many times you have recalled, let's say in the last 10 minutes. When you recall, if this number if less than 10, there's no delay. And then, for every recall above the threshold, there would be 1 extra second of delay. So if you have recalled 17 times in the last 10 minutes, there's a 7 second delay between being able to cast recall again.
The numbers could be tweaked a bit. With this configuration, if you need to bounce around 10 places and then be there for 10 minutes, there's no change. If you recall on average every 30 seconds, there's a 10 second delay. It gets saturated at a 23-second recall interval, where the delay also becomes 23 seconds, so it is not possible to recall any faster within a 10-minute window of time.

Baseline configuration:
- recall history kept for 10 minutes
- no delay under threshold of 10 recalls within that time
- 1 second delay for every recall above the threshold
- Maxes out at about 23-second recall interval
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Option: Another way, to make it similar to the Felucca mana drain:
Every recall applies a 10% slower-mana-regen debuff. Every 5 seconds, 1% of the debuff is reduced. Higher Intelligence would either make the debuff weaker, or make it reset faster. These numbers could be tweaked:
Baseline: Every recall applies 10% slower mana-regen. Reduces 1% every 5 seconds.
Stretch-over-time: Every recall applies 5% slower mana regen. Reduces 1% every 10 seconds.

Well, there's a problem with giving a mana-regen debuff, and then using Mana Leech weapons. So, either Mana leech would have to be ineffective when under this debuff, or it would all have to be designed to be completely separate from mana.
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Btw, I know that some of you who have just now gotten a hold of the script, it's annoying that we're changing it just now, after you finally got to play like those, who have macroed this for years. In a way, if someone makes a macro and gets to use it, it's fair that they get the benefits of having invented this machine. But also, it was perhaps a too big advantage for very few players for a long time.


I'm making this part of my 5-week plan, so I think we can discuss it for a week, and then it could be functional within a few days or a week.
Looking for input from you, from all types of players. I'd like us to figure this out "on paper" before it goes into coding. So, I'm going to do my best to read and understand, and possibly integrate, the feedback that I hear. I am definitely in favor of doing something, I don't want us to continue much further down the path where the only way you can get anywhere in this game is by running this macro.

[Muolke]

First off, thank you for finally starting this discussion. In my opinion it’s very overdue.

While we’ve actually had many threads and discussions about it, this is the first time there seems to be enough attention on the problem that will warrant some kind of change.

I know as much about coding as a 5th grader so I’m not sure how much time and effort would need to go into doing what you suggested above. In an effort to solve the problem and take up as little of your time as possible, wouldn’t it just be better to “curb” the amount of gold a Balron and Lurg drops? By reducing how much gold these mobs drop you’re achieving the same thing…plus it really is disproportionate to what similar difficulty mobs drop. An Ancient Wyrm drops a fraction what a Balron drops.

My suggestions is to drop the range of gold dropped by Balrons and Lurgs to the 1,000-2,000 gold range. I’ve had Balrons drop close to 8,000 gold and that’s just too much. Simply doing this won’t stop Balron farming but it will make the results be much closer to someone farming some of the other dungeons and areas. I know you brought up the issue of making it difficult for you to afk check with people recalling so fast so how about changing the cooldown on all recall type spells to 5 seconds so that it also gives you time to do what you need to do with afk checks etc?

This is my suggestion.

[Geriatric]

i do like the diminishing return on recall timer idea

i thought this was sort of the reason they had recharge timers on runebooks, but i guess people now just take to recalling straight off the rune evading that timer, other suggestion could be a flat cooldown on the recall/journey spell of 10 or 12 seconds

you cant recall from one dungeon direct to another another dungeon (although that idea doesnt really solve anything theres just twice as many recalls going out) but if it was in conjunction with a recall timer it would significantly slow people down

one thing i have wondered though...and its unrelated
why do felluca mobs have twice the amount of hit points but still drop the same amount of gold ?

[Batman]

Nerfing Balrons loot is great way to make them boring, and all my demon slayers too ;D So Imo recall nerf is great idea!

[malkari]

I mean you make good pizzas..

people ask for more..

you'll find excuses and penalize the entire population or find ways to make more?

My 2 cents..

--

[GreenBar]

The root of this issue is the gain in gold per hour is excessively high for recall farming using a specific set of spawners. Hate to admit I agree with Muolke but he's got the right idea,

My suggestions is to drop the range of gold dropped by Balrons and Lurgs to the 1,000-2,000 gold range.

The simplest and most straight forward solution with minimal impact to other play styles is decreasing the gold gained from these spawners. The range of gold values is something that needs to be analyzed.

UO game play is a complex system. It's difficult to change one aspect without altering others. A recall delay will impact more than just "hands free grinding" (aka AFK farming.)

This month I've been enjoying a repeatable quest. It takes 10 recalls to complete. If one or more of the spawn was recently cleared by another player, I jump to the next then come back for it. Under the proposed relocation spell changes, I'll be dealing with recall delays implemented trying to fix hands free farming.

NPC resource gathering is another play style that will be affected. Work on more than 9 vendors and your play will be impacted by recall delays.

There are some discontinued tamable spawner types about the shard. The way I used to farm them, I'd be facing recall delays under these new rules before I finished.

Been a while since I hunted Doom but remember there were daemon bone farmers that recalled about the dungeon to feed the recent, well still recent in my mind, need for 1 skull per Gauntlet round. There style of play would be impacted by the proposed changes.

I'm sure there are other play styles that will be affected by altering relocation spells rules. It seems a shame to diminish all these because a single play style is out of balance on the shard.

The variety of play styles on UOEX has been decreasing the last half decade. It would be nice to see this trend change.

GreenBar aka ImInDanger

[Jebidia]

To be honest, I am an old school button pusher. I do use Razor for some help in hot keys and such. When I hunt Balrons and such, I smoke through them pretty fast. Only difference is that I am actually playing the game. I am not reading or doing homework or playing another game. We all have our own play styles. I couldn't give 2 hoots about someone script farming. But, with scripting, someone is ALWAYS gonna find some way around whatever changes you make. Those of us who don't have the time to farm as much as others would be hurt by dropping the gold drops on Balrons and Lurgs. However, the recall timer would have little to no effect on us push button guys. I would love for the afkers to all be caught and have them delt with. But, I don't think +C should have to spend every waking moment to try and flush 'em out. If nerfing the recall timer will take care of the issues, I am all for it!

[arni]

i prefer the recall option

no point in nerfing the spawn as they will just move on to the next best. Making more areas no go for players that want to play the game without macros running 24/7

however another option would be put balrons in more age restricted areas
say make despise one year with maybe two balrons in there one one the island one in the last tunnel and move ogreloads to outside of the main area
could also use some of the unused areas for other time frames

blighted grove tram 18 months maybe have a lurg in there
sanctuary tram 24 months gorub and trogs

could even maybe have special arti drops in these to help with player retention

[Muolke]

i prefer the recall option

no point in nerfing the spawn as they will just move on to the next best. Making more areas no go for players that want to play the game without macros running 24/7

however another option would be put balrons in more age restricted areas
say make despise one year with maybe two balrons in there one one the island one in the last tunnel and move ogreloads to outside of the main area
could also use some of the unused areas for other time frames

blighted grove tram 18 months maybe have a lurg in there
sanctuary tram 24 months gorub and trogs

could even maybe have special arti drops in these to help with player retention

Why would we make areas age restricted? That would make things even worse especially for newer players.

I’m a proponent of keeping things simple, that’s why I suggested just altering the Balron loot and bring it in line with similar mobs.

I used to be a proponent of messing with the recall ability of players but then others brought up valid concerns and scenarios which now make me more hesitant to support making drastic changes to how recalls work etc other than increasing the cooldown to 5 seconds to give staff enough time to conduct proper afk checks.

[arni]

Why would we make areas age restricted? That would make things even worse especially for newer players.

we already do this to help retain newer players this is just an extension of what is already in place.
how many vets would be in mistville if it wasnt locked at 120 days??
you drop the gold all that is going to happen is the same say 20 people that heavily farm balrons say 10 spots are going to farm the next 100 spots so making those harder for new players. this way newer players have access to areas that can be profitable without having to compete with 20 relayered people macroing the kills to death

[Muolke]

we already do this to help retain newer players this is just an extension of what is already in place.
how many vets would be in mistville if it wasnt locked at 120 days??
you drop the gold all that is going to happen is the same say 20 people that heavily farm balrons say 10 spots are going to farm the next 100 spots so making those harder for new players. this way newer players have access to areas that can be profitable without having to compete with 20 relayered people macroing the kills to death

We do this in Mistvale so that new players can get gear that is better than regular cheap stuff they can buy that will last the until they can get some relayers.

We also do this because in Mistvale you earn more XP when you kill something compared to anywhere else so it prevents it from having players leveling weapons faster in there.

Limiting areas of gameplay to only certain players won’t solve anything, it will just create more issues.

If you decrease gold drops of Balrons and Lurgs all it does is bring the loot in line with what other mobs drop. Even if people move on to another area to recall farm it won’t be nearly as profitable as Balron farming is now.

[arni]

we already do this to help retain newer players this is just an extension of what is already in place.
how many vets would be in mistville if it wasnt locked at 120 days??
you drop the gold all that is going to happen is the same say 20 people that heavily farm balrons say 10 spots are going to farm the next 100 spots so making those harder for new players. this way newer players have access to areas that can be profitable without having to compete with 20 relayered people macroing the kills to death

We do this in Mistvale so that new players can get gear that is better than regular cheap stuff they can buy that will last the until they can get some relayers.

We also do this because in Mistvale you earn more XP when you kill something compared to anywhere else so it prevents it from having players leveling weapons faster in there.

Limiting areas of gameplay to only certain players won’t solve anything, it will just create more issues.

If you decrease gold drops of Balrons and Lurgs all it does is bring the loot in line with what other mobs drop. Even if people move on to another area to recall farm it won’t be nearly as profitable as Balron farming is now.

all what you say is just going to push the macros onto the next creatures so still limiting the areas to the elite few nothing would change just less areas for new players to go without competing with the fully relayed players.

dropping gold wouldn't stop them getting rich just would push them on to 100 hundred spots instead of 10

and excatly what issues does limiting areas to age create apart from you wont be able to go there

and what you seem to think is the mistvale stuff is great considering after 6months most of it is useless as you cant wear it
so its basically a cape and sash which are not the same level as a fully relayered person.

[sarmatian]

I would really prefer not to use % mana drain ...
it is like being naked in the midst of enemies.
variable timer sounds good to me,
perhaps certain "teleport error" could add another variable ... 1-3 squares in random legal direction - sure sometimes you get stuck in the hole - then use I am stuck option ... this is for those who use dead reckoning ... I admit that i have recorded path from Fel moongate to Destard, not AFK but Auto-Pilot.

[Wil]

- Doing AFK checks because of intense recalling is very hard, and sometimes close to impossible. Btw, I'd like to implement an automated AFK check system, but very soon there will be a script that can answer it with very good precision, and so we will upgrade it periodically - but we will probably always have to manually check players, to try new methods of getting people's attention. So I try to be creative, to "break" someone's script get them to slow down somehow, so I can do the AFK check. And that's extra mental work, and it's time consuming, and we have to do huge numbers of AFK checks. I have just tried to check a player, they're recalling around at an interval of about every 2 seconds, and so by the time I click anything or place an obstacle or do an eye-catching effect, they're already gone.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just bar fast travel for a character that has been selected for an AFK check but has not yet completed it? Have an entire AFK check mode: character and pets are invulnerable, unable to attack and unable to recall. No messages in the journal; the skill use just doesn't do anything. The mobs wander away like they would for an invulnerable NPC, you put a modest AFK check on the screen (not a heart-stopping cacophony) and then wait for them to notice.

[Johnny Warren]

This was always the way I thought it could be handled the best. The 2 major issues:

1) It impacts a lot of other activity that isn't seen as a problem (as mentioned above). E.g. New players resource gathering as they can't afford exex prices via vendor hopping or other.

2) The better scripters now just change the macros to be rail macros, with a recall in between each rail at much larger time gaps to avoid penalties. This furthers the divide between the so called "Haves" and "Have-nots"

Note: Balrons are actually not a problem any more. With ZeeeQi generously releasing his script to the community for free and providing trouble shooting I logged on and there are 5 players at Balrons. It is actually already inefficient now, and with problems 1 and 2 I mentioned, will this change not actually make things worse?

As stated in the other thread, there are a couple of chronic AFKers who already use rails (it's funny to see them stuck in fel deceit when their script bugs out) or use no rails and just AFK at the gnaw or fel Wrong. Policing should be the bigger priority.

That said, I am not against the proposed change, just debating whether it is worth it. Mark my words, we will be having a debate about whether we should be lowering the mob intensity in Fel Wrong within 12 months...