Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

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MagicUser
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Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by MagicUser »

After testing for several hours, I am fairly confident that we do not have SSI malus on this shard.

Procedure
I knew that if table values for swing delay were correct, 34%, 40%, and 50% life leech would be enough on an elven composite bow to check for SSI malus.

According to UOGuide, with 10% SSI, 50% hit life leech would be indistinguishable from 42% life leech. With 40% SSI, 50% hit life leech would be indistinguishable from 33% hit life leech.
  • 10% SSI helmet.
  • 34% Hit Life Leech Elven Composite Bow.
  • 40% Hit Life Leech Elven Composite Bow.
  • 50% Hit Life Leech 30% SSI Elven Composite Bow.
  • 1100 hp albino squirel
  • lich form (start from 0 hp with 150 stamina)
Each column is averaged and then divided by 1100. Although some hp is lost as a lich and some hp is regened by the squirrel. It will be close enough to the same in each trial, so in theory that can be ignored.
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Note that the data is practically linear. If there was a SSI malus, I would expect the 30% SSI bow with 50% Hit Life leech to tank well below the 40% Life Leech bow. Yet it did not.

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Note that the following would be semi reasonable results for SSI malus. As noted later in this thread, I was incorrect about how speed relates to ticks. The table shown in that post shows the behavior from the speed table.

Disclaimer
The equations used are from UOGuide. UOGuide is not always correct since our shard can be a little different in some regards.

Before someone comments that this is pointless, I thought I would point out that the effect of SSI on leeching is minimal. Still when you have the time why not chase every last drop of potential. Perhaps someone will find this useful.

Pre-info
SSI - Swing Speed Increase allows you to maintain a swing speed even when your stamina vanishes.

"speed" is the base number of ticks between each swing [1]
Speed_Ticks_reference.jpg
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The minimum delay between swings is 1.25 seconds. Meaning theoretically a weapon with a "speed" of 5 would make stamina and SSI irrelevant.

Findings
Formula.jpg
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I will call the max leech a SSI malus. Note that the SSI malus is doubled for ranged weapons [2].

After hearing about the discussion Warren was having in chat earlier today, I figured it might be beneficial to see trends for "how bad" too much SSI could be.
Effective Leech Calculations.jpg
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There are a few things that this shows.
  1. The common melee weapons have no SSI malus.
  2. Yumi's are affected by an SSI above 30.
  3. Stamina is really important. Imagine having to wait nearly 7 times as long per swing if you did not have enough stamina.
Taking the equation from reference 2, I can solve for the speed at which SSI becomes relevant. The following was derived using 60% SSI and 60% Leech.
  • For melee weapons, a "speed" less than 15 will result in SSI malus.
  • For ranged weapons, a "speed" less than 30 will result in SSI malus.
I looked through all the weapons in Junobo's museum. The minimum speed of weapons was the following.
  • Melee: 24 (lance)
  • Ranged: 22 (heavy crossbow)
Conclusion
Using these numbers I then was able to calculate the maximum SSI one could have without incurring SSI malus.
  • Melee: 150%
  • Ranged: 14% - though technically no relevant ranged weapon has below 25, which would result in a max of 30%.
From this I can pretty safely assume melee weapons have no mage malus. So if you never use a bow, don't worry about it.

If you do use a bow and you want to eek out a bit more swing speed when it really matters without SSI malus. 30% appears to be a safe bet.

Before anyone exclaims, that's why my mana is going down so fast. Etc. It could be, but that is unlikely. At most we are talking about 10% reduction in leech chance. Even with mana leech, though important, mana regen gives way more mana than mana leech could even dream of.

If UOGuide is truly to be believed, this helps maximize survivability in high dps places where SSI will keep your average swing speed up when you take the massive hits and where you need every last drop of life leech potential. Not where you are maintaining 237+ stamina.
Last edited by MagicUser on Mon Feb 06, 2023 5:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Paroxysmus ILV Master Spellcaster
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by Geriatric »

theres a good chance im not fully understanding all of this but

cos im pretty sure the higher the number on "weapon speed" the faster the weapon is suppose to swing
how does a weapon with a slower swing speed have less of a delay time between the 2nd swing than a faster weapon ?
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by MagicUser »

You are correct I am looking into this. I thought I had remembered it not being trivial for some reason. I can't seem to find a way to correlate the speed on the weapon to seconds.

Looking at a table for all the speeds of weapons though results in seemingly non-sense results (that leeches on a yumi above 40 are pointless and 60% SSI would reduce the max to 25). Which is ridiculous.

Important if true, but I'm pretty sure I can discount such numbers.
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Geriatric wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:21 am
theres a good chance im not fully understanding all of this but

cos im pretty sure the higher the number on "weapon speed" the faster the weapon is suppose to swing
how does a weapon with a slower swing speed have less of a delay time between the 2nd swing than a faster weapon ?
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by Geriatric »

i thought it was based of how many swings per minute @ certain amount of dex
halberd being 25
katana being 46
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by MagicUser »

This makes reasonable sense. I am thinking we don't have SSI malus here on uoex. I have been running some empirical tests for the past 3-4 hours and getting results that would be inconsistent with a SSI malus model.

I'll update the post when I get finished with my averaged ~health recovered/~damage done.
Geriatric wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:07 am
i thought it was based of how many swings per minute @ certain amount of dex
halberd being 25
katana being 46
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by Melkor »

Not long ago I took SSI off my gear. Before that on long fights I’d run out of mana and not be able to use specials. I was pleasantly surprised that now that just about never happens. From my experience I noticed a difference and was quite happy with the results of taking SSI off my gear.

My ML is 38% by the way
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by MagicUser »

Bah, I have no idea. May be an admin question. Experimental results trend toward no SSI malus. At least from the results that UOGuide's equation's produce. Melkor, you are not the first person I have heard this from either, which makes me believe there is something. My mom and I also have maxed gear, yet for some reason I never run out of mana and she does.
Melkor wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:36 am
Not long ago I took SSI off my gear. Before that on long fights I’d run out of mana and not be able to use specials. I was pleasantly surprised that now that just about never happens. From my experience I noticed a difference and was quite happy with the results of taking SSI off my gear.

My ML is 38% by the way
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by Johnny Warren »

Thorough work, Paroxysmus. Doesn't sound like you :lool:

As Melkor said, anecdotally, I think there is an effect, but as I scientist I cannot argue against empirical data.

One thing I find, suspect, on the UOGuide article is this line: "The maximum possible life leech percentage you can get on a melee weapon is determined by the following formula (based on this post by MrTact on UO Stratics): "

Who is MrTact? How did he obtain the formula?Both the links are dead.

I think it needs +C to weigh in on this to actually get the formula. But I think those hidden mechanics, he is somewhat reluctant to reveal. I'll give your method a read tonight (this is my morning 20min run while I have my coffee before work) and see if there's a way we can confirm this stuff.
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by culichi »

MagicUser wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:07 am
Bah, I have no idea. May be an admin question. Experimental results trend toward no SSI malus. At least from the results that UOGuide's equation's produce. Melkor, you are not the first person I have heard this from either, which makes me believe there is something. My mom and I also have maxed gear, yet for some reason I never run out of mana and she does.
could it be the weapons? i dont know this but ive heard from players that some whirlwind weapons use mana more efficiently than others.
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by MagicUser »

Theoretically this is because ww costs less mana and you have up to 9 targets you can leech from at once.
culichi wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:21 pm
could it be the weapons? i dont know this but ive heard from players that some whirlwind weapons use mana more efficiently than others.
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Re: Exploration of SSI's effect on Leeching

Post by Geriatric »

MagicUser wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:13 pm
Theoretically this is because ww costs less mana and you have up to 9 targets you can leech from at once.
culichi wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:21 pm
could it be the weapons? i dont know this but ive heard from players that some whirlwind weapons use mana more efficiently than others.
i cant speak to mana but its definitely the case with life leech
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