Excelsior

Edited for niceness...

lol, I cant wait to see Nyx's response to those last couple posts, if she bothers to respond.

Gray area: Temporary event rules - which is why we post them on the forums for events that will run for longer than a few hours (Winter event, Deco contests), and announce them in-game at event time for short-term events that will only run for that evening (Monster Bash, etc).

Someone didn't know a rule and fell afoul of it, god forbid. What horrible people we staffers must be. Well.... We do more than our due diligence in posting the rules, reminding people of the rules, announcing changes and so on. If someone is genuinely that oblivious or ignorant, and they "accidentally" break a rule - that's unfortunate but at the end of the day, tough luck. Did you ever stop to consider the fact that -nearly every single time- (I am not exaggerating. We hear this about 99.5% of the time) we punish or cite anyone for -anything- they claim they didn't know? So, are we to believe everyone and let nobody be punished for anything - might as well throw out the rules at that point, mm? Or, do we look at each situation, decide the course of action, and handle it as much the same as possible for each person being cited for the same infractions? Which one seems more fair, in the long run? Which one seems better for the shard? We have almost no way to guarantee what someone did or didn't know. Sometimes we can reasonably prove that they did know, often we can show that they had no reason not to know. That's about the best we can do. It would not be fair to -anyone- to apply the rules differently just because someone claimed ignorance or innocence.


I see you've still got your knickers in a knot over the Mistvale stuff? Geez. Fine. Let's reshash that dead horse yet again.

From the original Mistvale post (which existed before the wiki, and when Mistvale was announced in game & the town crier message informed everyone that they needed to read this post): http://www.uoex.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8010

+Nyx wrote:- The Reaper of Souls - A non-repeatable quest for a 3x40 weapon (on display near Hastings)
- The Sash of Fog - Non-repeatable quest for a nice sash (on display near Hastings)
- The Cloak of Mist - Non-repeatable quest for a very cool cloak (on display near Hastings)

Non-repeatable. Meaning - you as a person are not permitted to repeat it. Not a very difficult concept. This was also announced in-game multiple times and further clarified on the forums:

+Nyx wrote:Reminder: these quests are 1 per account. If I catch you exploiting the quest system to run these quests multiple times, you will be blocked from all of the armor quests for the entire 120 days, and jailed.

When I discovered that you had indeed run these quests 5x (once each on your alts), I simply removed them and you were not permitted back to the area. You claimed - and still seem to, from a post you made in another thread this week - that you'd intended the extras to be for your alternate characters. However, in order to obtain multiples of each you had to run the quests on those characters, and instead of equipping them (and therefore binding them to your account), you stored them all in a box in your house. A box which also contained other items folks usually sell. If you'd obtained them -solely- for the use of your characters, why did you not equip them on said characters? I didn't believe that story, and so I did not cut you a break that would have made the action taken for you any different than any other player who was also handled at that same time. There were several players who had done so, some had already sold their duplicate Mistvale items, and the players who purchased them were not punished - only the players who had run the quest multiple times. Of those players who'd cheated multiples, not a single one was jailed or punished in any way. Their sashes/cloaks/reapers were removed, they weren't permitted back to Mistvale, and that was about that.

Here are my exact notes in our staff documentation regarding the incident:

+Nyx wrote:Confiscated any applicable Mistvale rewards obtained via the exploitable quests. Where items had already been sold or traded to another account, they remain with the new owner. Any reapers which had been leveled or type changed, I refunded the deeds applied to it and took the item itself. Accounts still within mistvale age range have been barred from mistvale. Sent PM explaining confiscations + rules.

These notes read the same for you, and the other handful of folks who were cited at that same time.

Since then, you've continued to talk trash about me to your fellow players, you've sent me an unsolicited forum PM regarding my statements that I would be in favor of removing the voting reward. In your PM, you were stating that I was vengeful and you preached for some time about what kind of person you thought I ought to be, that the Mistvale 'punishment' was brutal, and generally just lectured me regarding things you'd clearly overreacted to. Did the voting reward change? Nope. Did I suggest that it change? Yep. Just because I say I will support or suggest something to +C does not mean it will happen. Do I still believe the voting reward should not be 1 ED, but perhaps some sort of smaller 'thank-you' that can't be obtained any other way? Yes, I do. That's just how I feel on the matter. I don't see how this makes me vengeful or a terrible person - but then again I guess the point is that it -doesn't-. Some folks will just always want to see things that way, particularly when they've been cited for an infraction.

I have absolutely zero issue with you Wil, beyond the fact that 7-ish months later you're still talking smack and posting passive aggressive or outwardly negative posts regarding the Mistvale matter. You did something that somehow 90% of the rest of the people who were in that area managed to know not to do. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you maybe somehow didn't know, you were not jailed. You were spoken to, and appropriate action was taken. Don't you think it's time to move on? The only negativity here, or between us, is what you continue to make.

If one is confused about the rules, I don't see any dificulty in using the global chat, personal message or page staff before performing what could or could not be illegal to do in the shard.

I do it all the time. And I see lots of people doing it. As far as I know, the shard runs smooth most of the time...

English is my 3rd language and I still manage to somehow get along with the rules (although I disagree with SOME, that's not the point here).

The other day a staff member checked on me inside a dungeon, to see if I was macroing while AFK. Well, I wasn't, but if I was, I would have to face the consequences. It is part of the game, and we all should understand.

Ultima Online is a world within itself, and like it or not, staff will decide the rules, regulations, punishments and benefits for the game, and the players have 2 options: accept it and have fun, or not accept it and leave.

That is how I see it anyway

I'd been trying to think of a RL scenario from my own life that would apply above, but at the time hadn't come up with one. Upon further thought, though I did think of one.

Many years ago, when I was fresh out of school, my best friend wanted to see a particular show. For a birthday gift, I pinched every penny and saved up for tickets to this venue, the fee for which was rather exorbitant even if I'd -had- money to start with. Finally having saved enough, I purchased the tickets, presented them to my friend who nearly wet himself with joy, and a few weeks later off we went to the venue.

We arrived, very excited and generally having a great time. We got to our seats, the show was about to begin and they made an announcement - they stated that no photography was allowed during the show. My friend and I thoroughly enjoyed the first portion and during intermission decided it was selfie time. I took a photo of us in our seats, and a moment later an usher was standing censoriously at my side. No photography -at all- was allowed. My photo didn't show the stage, performers, or anything except our dopey-smiley faces. However, he stood there while I deleted the photo from my camera, and then I was asked to leave. As he was walking me out, I apologized and said that the announcement had said only that there were no photographs during the show. He nodded, and then pointed to a sign posted in the lobby - no photography of any kind, at all, once inside. D'oh. I hadn't even seen that in our excitement to get in. I apologized again, and went to entertain myself until the show was over. I wasn't mad at him, or the establishment - I was mad at myself for not paying attention when arriving at something that meant a lot to my friend, and to my pocketbook. I was happy my friend had gotten to stay to enjoy the rest of the show, they could've kicked us both out, but thankfully they didn't. To this day I look back on that event and am sad I missed the rest of it, but only irritated at myself. It wasn't their fault I misunderstood the announcement and didn't notice their perfectly-well placed sign. That was my fault.

This is what I mean by personal responsibility. Yes, it sucks - so, so bad (it was a lot of money) - but they'd done their fair share to avoid the issue by posting signs + making announcements. The blame rested solely on my shoulders, and trying to shove that blame onto someone else would've just been childish.

Another in-game example: Standing at the World Teleporter by Brit Bank.

There is a sign right there asking the players not to stand on it, yet every other day there are people blocking the teleporter's view.

I watched new players running around, trying to step on the teleporter but they couldn't because someone was AFK right on it.

If there was a punishment for standing at the world teleporter (I don't know if there is), what right would the player have to complain?

People will break the rules regardless.

Another in-game example: Standing at the World Teleporter by Brit Bank.

Wil wrote:In some cases, rules are even arcane enough that governments take pains to assure that anyone in a position to seriously break them has first learned what they are. Consider professional licenses like an electrician's license. You can't work as an electrician without first demonstrating that you know enough about the fire code to avoid burning buildings down. Even then you have to work years of a supervised apprenticeship before you're allowed to work by yourself.

If you are going to school for 18 months to get a license to play this game, I just have to add here that it is NOT a wise career move
Seriously... I've been playing here on and off for over 5 years now, and -every time- I see someone jailed, it's because they did something stupid. They may not have known they were being stupid, hence the letters to +Coli, bashing +Nyx and +Veritas, but they -were- stupid. Not breaking the rules here is very, very simple. Do not be stupid. Problem solved.

RE: UNFRIGGIN-BELIEVABLE. Have some common sense people. Think for yourselves lol. If you can't, have mommy and daddy quiz you on the rules. Grow up.

Also...

Wil wrote:Having read that I surely understand the rule, right? Some Mistvale quests may only be done once. They'll be labelled. Easy. Except obviously the labelled Mistvale quests are repeated. There's five folks running around the dungeons working the same quest and they'll all achieve it without breaking the rule. The strictly literal meaning is obviously wrong -- the "non-repeatable" quests aren't reserved solely for the first player to complete them. As ever, a player must use "common-sense" to understand the words and not be rigidly literal about it.

Have you been drinking or something?

Last night 'my time' I watched a global chat conversation giving info to a new player about the intricacies of exex and pet breeding. I seriously wondered how helpful this was when their question related to mining and to whether or not there are 'evo' pets on this shard.
It is good to see players answering new/young player questions on chat however I think initially simple answers would be far less confusing, more helpful along with referring them to the wiki for the more detailed nuances of this shard.

Some shards that I have played on include in new player packs a Shard Rule Book which might be a helpful addition here for those who perhaps do not understand that the word CODEX refers to the rules of behaviour that are acceptable on this shard.

The continual 'flogging of the dead horse' - shard rule interpretation - on the forums and in chat suggests to me that anything which encourages players to read and understand the Codex would be a welcome addition.

Respectfully
Michi

Michi,

When a new player logs in for the first time, they are presented with a large gump that they can't close. The gump notifies them about our codex and provides a button to click to open the codex in their browser. They must click to accept that they've read and understand our shard rules in order to begin playing here.

Granted, a lot of people don't bother to read it, still, but that's where that whole personal responsibility thing comes in.

Anyway, since there's the gump I don't know if a book in their pack would be any more helpful - if they're gonna ignore the gump, they're likely to just trash the book too. I wouldn't be opposed to adding these books, but I just dunno if they'll really help circumvent any of the problems we see with folks claiming ignorance of the codex.

Ah apologies +N, so long since i created account.... of course you are correct that it is about personal responsibility and there is no guarantee that either would be read.

Michi

Reading the codex is a matter of common sense. When I start on any game server, be it UO, NWN etc etc, I go to that server's website and read the rules before I even log in. Most of it is common sense, but on every server I have ever played on, there have always been small rules that fit that particular gaming community.
Also, about the common sense -
Example- A man walks into a bank, and robs it. While being questioned at the local jail following his arrest, he states that he did not see a sign stating "It is illegal to rob this bank". He still gets 20 years in prison, the whole time bitterly blaming the "system" for his own stupidity.
This is the same attitude with many players that come through here. The sad thing is, every one of them are the same and they each seem to think they are uniquely singled out because they are somehow not responsible for their actions. They all use the same excuses, like "so and so said it was ok", or "I'm too lazy to read the codex", or "I'm too dumb to understand the codex", or "so and so is doing it and I do not see them getting in trouble", or "it's ok to do it on the other shard I play on". Basically, Waahhhhhhhh.
I have, many times paged staff questioning whether something is ok or not. I usually do this if it is not listed in the codex and I feel wary about what I am about to do. Once again - common sense.
I do not see why this subject is such an issue. But then again, I do not have a problem with authority. Bottom line is we are guests on +Coli's server. Just like one makes the rules in their own house, staff does so here.

+Nyx wrote:Someone didn't know a rule and fell afoul of it, god forbid. What horrible people we staffers must be.

Not at all. I've seen a number of examples of even-handed and even generous enforcement of rules by the admins around here, including by you. For example, when I was a brand new player, a few days in, I attended a grab-all event but didn't know I was supposed to have scavenger turned off. You (I think it was you) pulled me aside and explained the rule. I both apologized and obeyed. All very reasonable.

+Nyx wrote:We do more than our due diligence in posting the rules, reminding people of the rules, announcing changes and so on.

[...]

Non-repeatable. Meaning - you as a person are not permitted to repeat it. Not a very difficult concept. This was also announced in-game multiple times and further clarified on the forums:

+Nyx wrote:Reminder: these quests are 1 per account. If I catch you exploiting the quest system to run these quests multiple times, you will be blocked from all of the armor quests for the entire 120 days, and jailed.

Yes, a week later buried on a second page of replies you posted that. Here's two places you didn't (and still haven't) posted it:

On the Mistvale wiki page you created

In a top-level forum post titled "Mistvale rules clarification" where folks who read the forums would have a hard time missing it.

And here are some things you -didn't- post to the forums or the wiki:

"Please be aware that the game will allow you to run the non-repeatable quests once per character. This is against the rules and will be corrected in the game code. If you complete the non-repeatable Mistvale quests with more than one character, you will be punished."

"If you collected more than one of the non-repeatable quest items by playing the quest with more than one character, you broke the rules. Please contact me to voluntarily turn in the extras."

20/20 hindsight lets us see words that would have permitted the subsequent harsh punishment to be just. Unfortunately, you didn't say those words or any others that would have made your intent clear. You communicated very poorly and then came down hard on anyone who hadn't learned to read your mind.

That isn't justice. Were you the U4 Avatar, you'd have lost that eighth of the ankh.

+Nyx wrote:Instead of equipping them (and therefore binding them to your account), you stored them all in a box in your house. A box which also contained other items folks usually sell. If you'd obtained them -solely- for the use of your characters, why did you not equip them on said characters?

Yeah, I'm a bad bad guy. By and large the rest of the items in the supposed "sell" box I either still have or dropped in the new player donation chests. I'm not sure whether I ever tried or even wanted to sell any of them. And as you agree, I neither sold nor attempted to sell any Mistvale items.

Don't make this about me. This complaint is about *your* choices, your injustice. If you ever find it within you to accept responsibility and admit your misbehavior, there will be time enough then to discuss whether any of -my- behavior precludes restitution.

Pity there was no discussion at the time. Did so many people misunderstand the rule that you couldn't afford time to talk with them individually?

+Nyx wrote:Since then, you've continued to talk trash about me to your fellow players,

Guilty, though I do try to preface it with a comment or two about my respect for your talent and dedication to the game. You're a good person Nyx, but you've done a few needlessly nasty things to players like me.

+Nyx wrote:you've sent me an unsolicited forum PM regarding my statements that I would be in favor of removing the voting reward. In your PM, you were stating that I was vengeful and you preached for some time about what kind of person you thought I ought to be, that the Mistvale 'punishment' was brutal, and generally just lectured me regarding things you'd clearly overreacted to.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that -before- calling you out publicly I expressed my concerns about your behavior in a polite (if a bit preachy) private message, just between the two of us?

And anyway, I didn't so much lecture about who you should be as ask which kind of person you wanted to be: one who on a lark drops nifty collectables into folks' packs or one who brutalizes players when the game code errantly fails to enforce the "intent" of a poorly written rule. If I made it obvious which person I wanted to see, I confess that wasn't exactly an accident.

Do you recall your response? I believe the word "silly" was in there somewhere. Total negation of any possibility that any of your behavior was less than flawlessly righteous. You're always right Nyx. Always. It's remarkable.

+Nyx wrote:Don't you think it's time to move on? The only negativity here, or between us, is what you continue to make.

This point I concede. I've said what I had to say and everyone inclined to listen has done so.

Regards,
Wil