weapon build advice?

[Muolke]

Someone else already said it but…

When adding to a weapon the first question you have to ask yourself is: Does it add damage?

If the answer is no then don’t add it.

I actually think you’re better off adding RPD than adding STR because you’ll get more additional damage from it.

If there’s one thing clear from this thread is that there’s still a lot of people that don’t fully understand how to maximize damage from your weapon. The Ancient Warhammer is the 2nd best ancient weapon there is…don’t mess around with it too much. There’s a proven way to do things (look at what JW wrote) and then there’s 1 million ways to screw it up.

[Wil]

Okay:

No HP. HP doesn't increase the weapon's damage.

Yumi because: double shot.

I have a high tolerance for mismatched numbers. Am I right to think that moving 2 points from magic arrow to lightning will marginally increase the weapon's damage?

RPD as a competitor to STR in the build. I'd love to hear some more opinions on this. STR will increase the damage in fixed ways, but RPD's damage increase will depend on the opponent's physical damage and your physical resist, right? Where's the break-even line?

Thanks again for everybody's advice.

Regards,
Wil

[MagicUser]

Weapon Tiering
Weapon Tier (Beginning, Middle, End Game) are primarily defined by how many of the 4 spell hits are on the weapon at 58%+.
4xSpell Hits + Mana Leech is the base requirement for a truly end game weapon. Everything else is gravy.

General Weapon Type Selection
For mid game weapons it starts becoming cost effective to change weapon types. Yumi and Double Axe being the standard and some one offs being the war hammer.

For new player clarity, changing the weapon type will change the Weapon Damage, Weapon Speed, Handed (if not relayered as 1 handed), skill requirement, aesthetic, primary ability, and second ability to that of the new weapon type. Weapon Speed is irrelevant if you have more than 237 stamina.

With 17-18 Damage, Whirlwind, and Crushing Blow, the War Hammer appears nearly as good as a Yumi (18-20 Damage, Armor Pierce, and Double Shot) and better than a Double Axe (15-17 Damage, Double Strike, and Whirlwind). However with spell hits and Spell Damage Increase you do way more damage from spell damage than from the actual strike.

Here are some calculations for reference. Note these weapons have 20 SDI and 8 Str on them. Keep in mind the values are approximate (+- 1). The calculations are based on my players clothing stats and skills. The damage is higher when buffs are applied. These calculations do not account for spell buffs. I only have 1 titan and no totem, so they shouldn't be too ridiculous for Wil. Goal stats are based on full ancient titan hammer relayer set. Little bit of a pipe dream, but it shows the ideal.

War Hammer Damage.jpg (369.13 KiB) Viewed 4444 times

Yumi Damage.jpg (368.26 KiB) Viewed 4444 times

Double Axe Damage.jpg (365.09 KiB) Viewed 4444 times

Notice that due to the lumberjacking bonus that the double axe gets, the double axe's base damage is actually almost on par with a war hammers base damage.

Here is what might be expected from spell damage. At least on a dragon. The important thing is the scale of the spell hits (done at melee range). The actual damage will vary based on the mobs resistances and your buffs.

Spell Damage Calculations.jpg (213.98 KiB) Viewed 4444 times

Using the spell damage on a dragon example.
91+51+68+23=233. 233*58%=135. A single 4x spell hit is already more damage than a weapon hit.
Armor pierce and crushing blow appear to do 150% damage. Not sure if that is exactly right, but it does not really matter. Double Strike has a 10% weapon damage penalty on the second strike.

War Hammer: Crushing Blow - 82*1.5 + 135 = 258.
Yumi: Armor Pierce - 91*1.5 + 135 = 272.
Yumi: Double Shot - (91+135)*2 = 452.
Double Axe: Double Strike - 84+135 + 84*.9+135 = 429.

Its pretty obvious that you want a double hit ability on your weapon for single mob attacks. Additionally it should be of note that Double Shot requires that you be mounted. There are a few places you cannot be mounted, so if you are looking at more expensive weapons, keep that in consideration.

Based on these numbers I contest that high mid game weapons should be made into either a yumi or a double axe.

Advanced Weapon Type Selection
Once you have an ancient weapon (not the ancient titan hammers), you'll want to consider spending more on deeds to make the weapon even better as getting another weapon afterwards probably won't happen.

Type change into a Double Axe and then a Dreadnaught Longsword. The DLS will change only the Weapon Damage, Weapon Speed, and aesthetic. The abilities will remain the same. I personally prefer the Double Axe's abilities (double strike for 1v1 and whirlwind for groups). This would change the weapon damage to 19-20.

Type change into Elven Composite Longbow and then buy a change weapon abilities deed. The abilities on the Elven Composite Bow suck, but it has the highest weapon damage at 19-22. I personally would use the abilities deed to Double Strike and Whirlwind, but I am in Wrong so I would be unable to use Double Shot since I cannot be mounted.

Really Expensive Strategies
There are change X to Y deeds. You can convert any weapon hit into another weapon hit with the same intensity (Hit Dispel 58% -> Hit Harm 58%). Some weapon properties cost less than others. It is possible to spend as little as 3 points rather than 4 points per hit %. Lower Defense, Lower Attack, and Stamina Leech are all only 3 points per %. Instead of adding 2 58% hits that cost 4 points per % which would cost 464 points. You could could add 2 58% hits that cost 3 points per % which would only cost 348 points. This would leave almost enough for to add a 3rd 58% hit that costs 3 points per %. Additionally, Lower Defense is a timing based thing, someone found the optimal value at one point. Somewhere in the 30-40 range. May be worthwhile to think about, though 2 or 3 X to Y deeds may not only cost a lot, but take awhile to acquire.

There is also the +points to weapon deeds that are offered at auction sometimes. That would take forever to acquire enough points for another 58% hit though.

I personally would really like some area damage on my weapon, but there just are not enough points to make it happen. SDI is really important. 20% is ~14 more damage per hit. 8 strength is ~2.4 more base damage (.3 per str) more damage per hit, more with buffs.

Weapon Attribute Ranking

1. Hit Lightning - Highest spell hit (Energy Damage).
2. Hit Harm - Second highest spell hit at 0 range (Cold Damage). More than ~4 tiles away, fireball does more damage.
3. Hit Fireball - Third highest spell hit (Fire Damage).
4. Hit Magic Arrow - Fourth highest spell hit (Fire Damage).
5. Hit Mana Leech - Buffs and abilities require mana. Not enough mana means less damage.
6. Spell Damage Increase - Cumulative spell hits can do a lot more damage than the pure weapon damage counterpart.
7. Strength - More base damage is nice, though it does not give a ton more (.3 per point).
8. Hit Lower Defense - Discordance will lower opponent defense chance, but some mobs cannot be discorded and some take awhile to discord.
9. Hit Life Leech - Mortal Strike and event areas may prevent healing. Curse Weapon and Vampiric Embrace can give life leech, casting time is non-combat time. Heavy hitting crowded areas may make the Curse Weapon approach not 100% effective as any time spent casting Curse Weapon is time not hitting mobs to get life leech.
10. Hit Cold Area - Lots of mobs have a weakness to the Cold Damage. Area is really nice to have in large groups, but may be useless in quest areas. Holy Light and Wither have a similar effect but have limited range.
11. Hit Energy Area - Some mobs have a weakness to Energy Damage.
12. Hit Fire Area - Some mobs have a weakness to Fire Damage.
13. Hit Stamina Leech - Although Divine Fury will replenish stamina, it prevents you from casting other spells like curse weapon, consecrate weapon, or enemy of one. Although there is no movement or attack penalty from casting it does mean that you can't be casting other spells. You want to stay above 237 stamina for sure, its just that there are other weapon attributes that have more to offer.
14. Hit Poison Area - Few mobs have a weakness to Poison damage.
15. Hit Physical Area - Very few mobs have a weakness to Physical Damage.
16. Hit Lower Attack - While being hit less sounds good, when you have more RPD being hit more actually means the mobs take more damage from hitting you with physical damage.
17. Hit Dispel - 3 point item, only current use is for being exchanged for other attributes (X to Y deed).

Reflect Physical Damage is hard to place on this list. Possibly better than Strength if you are fighting mobs doing more than 20 damage every 1.25 seconds. This probably would go into a discussion about more complex factors such as lowering your physical resistance and defense chance so that you do more damage with RPD. Which can be a risky and expensive proposition.

I imagine that the first 6 are pretty solid rankings, the rest may change in position depending on personal priorities/preference. Of course it becomes a little irrelevant, with 539 points you can only add 2x58 4 pointers, 20 SDI and 8 Str.

[MagicUser]

Lightning does 27 damage on a dragon with no spell damage multipliers (see what affects the multiplier in my previous post).

With the conditions I showed earlier:
Lightning does 91 damage. At 58% that would be 52.78 damage. At 60% that would be 54.6 damage.
Magic Arrow does 23 damage. At 58% that would be 13.34 damage. At 56% that would be 12.88 damage.

So on a dragon it would be numerically better to have 60% lightning and 56% Magic Arrow by 1.36 damage points per hit on average. This result may change on mobs that have less fire resistance or more energy resistance.

I have a high tolerance for mismatched numbers. Am I right to think that moving 2 points from magic arrow to lightning will marginally increase the weapon's damage?

[Wil]

Here are the options I'm considering, based on folks' advice:

Code: Select all

Fireball	58+2=60	8 points
Life Leech	58+0=58	no points
Lightning	58+2=60	8 points
Mana Leech	58+0=58	no points
Harm		0+60=60	240 points
Magic Arrow	0+54=54	216 points
SDI		0+20=20	40 points
STR		0+8=8	32 points
Total: 544 points

Code: Select all

Fireball	58+2=60	8 points
Life Leech	58+0=58	no points
Lightning	58+2=60	8 points
Mana Leech	58+0=58	no points
Harm		0+60=60	240 points
Magic Arrow	0+60=60	240 points
SDI		0+20=20	40 points
STR		0+2=2	8 points
Total: 544 points

What do you think? If I missed something you tried to tell me, now's the time to tell me I'm being thick.

[Johnny Warren]

If you don't mind having mixed numbers on your weapon, then yes, you could go for the lightning 60 style... You need to ask yourself is the extra 1.4dps on average worth the loss of aesthetics...

[Cerrera]

Maybe its good for educational purposes, or for will of perfection, but i think there is no much to worry about point there or there. Cause at the end of day, you will save minute or more, only on really beefy mobs, cause after just 1.25 sec you can always land another 500hp hit-number is figurative.

[MagicUser]

At least from the calculable values I see, I do not see a large gap in damage. This makes me leery of making a concrete declaration. As results will vary based on the targeted mob there may be some mobs where one will do more damage than the other. However, it does seem like a higher percentage in spells will give you more damage versatility (less likely for you to do a lot less damage).

With 2 strength, you'll get a .6 bonus to your base weapon damage (a loss of 1.8). With 60% instead of 58% on all 4 hits you might expect an average of 139.8 spell damage per hit (an increase of 4.66 damage per hit on dragons with 300 SDI).

You might try a middle ground.

Code: Select all

Fireball		58+0=58	no points
Life Leech		58+0=58	no points
Lightning		58+0=58	no points
Mana Leech	58+0=58	no points
Harm		0+58=58	232 points
Magic Arrow	0+58=58	232 points
SDI			0+20=20	40 points
STR			0+2=2	8 points
Total: 512 points

Make sure you have the capability to spend 544 points. See what you normally fight, if you find yourself benefiting from more weapon damage sink the remaining points into strength. If you see that the elemental damage is a lot more versatile like I'm expecting sink the remaining points into the 4 spell hits.

Then if you find yourself inclined you could get a couple +points to a weapon from an auction and increase which ever you did not pick.

[Wil]

Magic Arrow does 23 damage. At 58% that would be 13.34 damage. At 56% that would be 12.88 damage.

So if I understand right, 6 points in magic arrow are "worth" approximately 1.38 DPS? At what SDI?

And 6 points in STR are worth 1.8 DPS?

I have 545 points from using level deeds. It wouldn't make sense to spend 160M on a weapon at auction and then lose 50 points to avoid spending 58M more leveling it.

Thanks!

-Wil

[MagicUser]

When I looked at your propositions I missed that you proposed 60 lightning and 60 harm in both which is a sensible choice based on the calculations I've shown.

Magic Arrow does 23 damage. At 58% that would be 13.34 damage. At 56% that would be 12.88 damage.

So if I understand right, 6 points in magic arrow are "worth" approximately 1.38 DPS? At what SDI?

2% in Magic Arrow would cost 8 points, which is worth approximately .46 average damage per swing. 6% would be 1.38 damage per swing.

Using these calculations (spell damage increase at 310) ->

Here is what might be expected from spell damage. At least on a dragon. The important thing is the scale of the spell hits (done at melee range). The actual damage will vary based on the mobs resistances and your buffs.

Spell Damage Calculations.jpg (213.98 KiB) Viewed 4228 times

Strength contributes .3*strength + 5 if strength > 100 to the base damage calculation. So yes, 6*.3=1.8 damage per swing.

And 6 points in STR are worth 1.8 DPS?

Sounds like you missed my point. Though it appears that I did misread your proposition as well. I was saying you should apply 10 +10 deeds, but then maybe you should hold off on spending the last 17 points until you know what will benefit you more.

When I looked at your propositions I missed that you proposed 60 lightning and 60 harm in both which is a sensible choice. In that case it would be a question of whether 6 more strength (1.8 damage per swing) or 2% in both Magic Arrow and Fireball (.46 + 1.02=1.48 damage per swing on dragons) will do more. Obviously from those calculations 6 more strength would be better on a dragon, but maybe it would be different on something else.

Something to consider... I am not sure what your strength is at right now. I think the base damage rounds down, so you may need 4 strength (+1.2) to get to the next base damage point. +2 strength would only give +.6. So if +.6 doesn't get you to the next base damage point the strength points on the weapon would do nothing until you got more strength on something else.

Overall_Damage_Due_To_Strength.jpg (259.14 KiB) Viewed 4228 times

Note the flat segments. 3 and 1/3 strength is required to increase the base damage from the previous base damage by 1.

I have 545 points from using level deeds. It wouldn't make sense to spend 160M on a weapon at auction and then lose 50 points to avoid spending 58M more leveling it.

I completely agree, there should be no reason you don't spend as many points as possible.

[Wil]

Thanks all! Here's where I ended up. I'll convert it to a Yumi later on; right now I need a whirlwind weapon more.

weapon-done.gif (31.01 KiB) Viewed 4180 times

[Durocius]

I prefer melee over bow except with
one-hitters,so I’d keep that bad boy.
One-hand it,of course.
🧌

[MagicUser]

Its beautiful. Hope my answers and research were of service to you and everyone else.

[Johnny Warren]

I'm sure it works well... but 54, 56, 58.... owwww my eyes!

[Wil]

Its beautiful. Hope my answers and research were of service to you and everyone else.

They were. Thank you!